Hello all - wonder if somebody here can help me with this?
Looking at the wavetable section in the MULTI section of the MBSID, it’s looking that it’s not possible to make the classic Matt Gray bass (listen to Dominator, Last Ninja 2, etc - a wavetable sound which starts with a high pitched noise wave an then goes into a pulse wave). I can make the basic sound I want (using Rutger’s java editor) but cannot change the pitch of the noise within the wavetable without changing the pitch of the pulse too. Ideally, the noise pitch would need to be at it’s highest pitch and static (so it doesn’t change when played at lower keys).
Hopefully I’m missing something obvious, but it looks like you can only select one parameter per wavetable in multi mode? Spent a looooong time looking into this last night (I’m not good at asking for help) but I’m totally stumped on this one so could use some advice. It’s a lot different to the other wavetable’s I’ve used (MSSIAH, Quadrasid, etc) and I can’t get my little brain around it…
yes, you are right, currently only a single parameter is played in multi mode - i know that this sometimes isn’t optimal, but at the time I programmed this I was a bit carefull by allocating resources to have more freedom on additional user requests.
Resources are critical here, as the multi engine runs 6 independent wavetable sequencers in parallel…
I can’t increase the nmber of WT sequencers, and assigning WTs to instruments makes the usage more complicated than it already is, thats the dilemma :-/
I still don’t know a simple solution beside of making WTs assignable to the instrument, would this be ok for you, or do you have a better idea?
Btw.: does your sound work with the lead engine, or are there other issues?
Well at least I know I’m not going insane and was trying to do the impossible… :op
Not being a programmer, I can only really give advice on how I have seen it implemented in other applications (MSSIAH, P64, DMC and USA assembler on the C64 - Quadrasid, Hardsid and Goat-tracker on the PC). Of all of those, MSSIAH/P64 has the best ease of use in relation to the amount of options. Others offer more options, but are more difficult to use (Goat-tacker & USA for example).
I’d be happy with anything you could conjure to be honest! LOVE that Matt Gray Bass y’know… ;oD
Tonka
*edit* Are you thinking that you may be able to allocate the 5 parameters for the other instruments to 1 instrument? That would probably be enough if it was possible…
I haven’t used the lead mode much at all. I really want to use the Sammich as a direct replacement for my C64 if poss, which is why I prefer the multimode more than anything else.
well, thats always an issue to balance the features of a sound engine. Either they are limited but easy to use, or they are so flexible that only experts can realize good sounds with it (especially sounds which can’t be created with the simple ones).
I know the wavetable approach of many C64 based solutions, but none of them allows to control almost any parameter of the sound, e.g. also modulators like LFO/EG… mostly they only allow to control the pitch and waveform, thats all…
I really wanted this, therefore it got so complex.
And now I don’t really want to reduce the feature set again just that it matches with other implementations…
Ok, I’ve an alternative solution which you maybe like a bit more: an option which enables direct wave control in addition to any other parameter at offset 16
Means: you enter the sequence for any parameter change (for pitch: #249) between position 0..15, and waveform is controlled from position 16..31 if this option is enabled.
Are 16 steps enough? (from my experince it should)
How many steps do you need if the sound is created with the lead engine?
16 steps would be fine - I can’t remember ever using more than 8 TBH. So long as I can recreate most of the old school C64 sounds, I’m happy.
I’ll be totally honest though, I don’t think I’ll ever use any of the engines other than the multi, so you may as well put your efforts elsewhere as there obviously hasn’t been much call for this from other users (unless some others would like to show interest here)?
Previously I’ve mainly used wavetable sounds for the ‘Matt Gray’ Bass (which just sounds awesome when you sync/ring modulate with a triangle wave), arps and of course drum sounds. Being able to filter, ring mod and sync certain steps in a table can create some amazing effects (like the lead in Sanxion which starts un-modulated and then descends into ring-modulated/sync chaos toward the end of each note), but I have no idea how difficult that would be for you to implement! :o
It’s a simple change, so it will go into the next release.
Previously I’ve mainly used wavetable sounds for the ‘Matt Gray’ Bass (which just sounds awesome when you sync/ring modulate with a triangle wave), arps and of course drum sounds. Being able to filter, ring mod and sync certain steps in a table can create some amazing effects (like the lead in Sanxion which starts un-modulated and then descends into ring-modulated/sync chaos toward the end of each note), but I have no idea how difficult that would be for you to implement!
thats possible with the lead engine. just step the WT with a LFO, start with a slow rate, make it faster than longer the note is played (in other words: control the LFO rate with an envelope)
In the tutorial you will find a WT example which demonstrates exactly how to create such a setup. It shows how to apply the effect on a common pitch sequence, but you could also control ringmodulation/sync this way of course.
And no firmware change is required to realize this
This sophisticated control of the WT via trigger matrix won’t be available for the multi engine, because I want to keep it simple.
Too many people complained about the complex lead engine in the past, but probably they never noticed that with the multi engine a much simpler possibility is available…
In other words: if you want to create special sound effects, it really makes sense to have a deeper look on the lead engine capabilities.
Thanks Thorsten - I will make sure I take a good look at the Lead engine tonight and make the sound up. Am I to understand then that the Lead engine *can* be used as a multi engine somehow, but that the Multi engine is just easier to use in some respects? As I’ve only ever wanted to use the Sammich as a multi instrument, I’ve never really looked at any of the other modes.
Mwahhh… So I officially FAILED at making the bass sound with the lead engine. I’m certain it can be done (and I can see now why you don’t want to make the multi engine as complex - phew!) but the killer for me is that (as far as I can tell), there is no way of assigning oscillators to separate midi channels and I’d like to make use of all the 6 available channels in my Sammich! Mmmm!
BUT! I have thought of a couple if idea’s on how to implement the changes we have discussed.
I managed to get something like the sound by using a combination of the wavetable switching waves (starting with a noise wave (step 0), then to a pulse wave (step 1) and looping on step 1. I then used the envelope to sweep the pitch from it’s highest point (decay set to about 10) and adjusted the speed of the wavetable accordingly so that the ‘normal’ pitch is reached at the same time as the pulse wave begins in the wavetable. It sounds ‘OK’, but the sweep becomes very obvious when ring/sync modulated.
Is it possible to add a delay parameter to the onset of the envelope section (or even implement a slightly more complex envelope beyond the standard ADSR)? Then I could pitch the oscillator as high as possible in the main settings and delay the envelope so that it kicks in at the ‘normal’ pitch at the same time the pulse wave kicks in on the wavetable? Obviously this would only work if there was no audiable sweep of the pitch.
when setting the oscillator type in the wavetable, I noticed that beyond the +63 setting there are 127 wave variations which *seem* to be practically identical as I cycle through them. Would it be possible to set some of these to higher octaves and even (esp for the noise wave) a static pitch?
Just thinking aloud here - your solution sounds more complete, TBH!
Hehe - sorry Hawkeye! I wanted to upload a bank of sounds really, rather than just one or 2 patches at a time but I’ll make sure I put the Matt Gray patch up tonight! There are 3 spare osc left for channels 4, 5 & 6, so I’ll try to recreate the Dominator bass drum, and a MG PWM lead (maybe the one off the Bankok Knights loader?) just for completeness!
