SID "Clones" List/Sources/Experiences

[Noise-Generator]

Because SID Clones are cool and from time to time a new one appear, this List could be helpful to get an overview.

Feel free to add new or further Information where to buy/whatever… (Technically they are no real Clones they are emulations on microchips)

SwinSID  http://www.swinkels.tvtom.pl/swinsid/ (DIY possible)

TKs SwinSID Review->http://ucapps.de/midibox_sid_manual_swinsid.html

Arduino/Atmega based Replacement, cheap but simple

Mostly sold on ebay (about 15-20€)

SwinSID Ultimate

Improved SwinSiD

Full describtion https://www.polyplay.xyz/SwinSID-Ultimate

(Audio in for Feedback)

FPGASID  

An FPGA based SID further Infos: http://www.fpgasid.de/

Forum 

(Audio in for Feedback)

ARMSID (Recommended solution April, 2021)

ARM Cortex M4 based SID

(Please read further informations from drwestbury, jjonas and Martin Lukazek at page 2 of this thread)

Info and shopping https://www.retrocomp.cz/produkt?id=2

BackSID (New)

ARM Cortex?

Info, Shipping: https://store.backbit.io/product/backsid/ (Just possible to add one to the basket)

SIDKICK (DIY)

Teensy 4.1 (ARM Cortex M7) + PCB. Attention, this one is big and maybe don’t fit inside your Midibox. Based on ReSID engine. Nice Features like switching trough different SID Models. See also page 2 of this thread.

https://github.com/frntc/SIDKick

FREESID (DIY)

Teensy 4.0 (ARM Cortex M7) + PCB
Possibility to modify/recode the Firmware. 
Stereo SID Emulation (Early Alpha Firmware (No Filter, ADSR Bug), PCB available from the builder here:https://www.uni64.com/c/pcb-platinen/free-public-domain)

UltiSID (Ext. ->Forum Link)

https://www.forum64.de/index.php?thread/113715-ultisid-new-stm32-sid-chip-replacement/

Dual 6581 SID Emulator (DIY)

Teensy 3.5 (ARM Cortex M4) + PCBs (no good Plug and Play for MBoxes, look at the Dimensions)
Code is based on ReSID Engine which is the Soundengine of the VICE C64 Emulator
Infos: https://hackaday.io/project/159917-dual-6581-sid-emulator

It is possible/necessary to configure SwinSID Ultimate, FPGA and ARMSID (6581/8580 mode, Filter mode) you need a working C64 for this and a sd2iec or something similar. Keep that in mind. Read with which configuration they will be shipped and may ask the seller if he can configure it to fit your needs.

ARMSID offers a standalone and DIY Arduino based solution to configure ARMSIDs without a C64 https://retrocomp.cz/produkt?id=67

[dwestbury]

Nice list! One I’d like to see added is the great sounding SID implementation that Gideon from the Ultimate 1541 / Ultimate 64 project (https://ultimate64.com/) has made with a Xilinx FPGA.

I don’t think he’s been persuaded to consider selling it as a separate product yet however. 
 

I hear that SwinSID ultimate is very good, but they’re nowhere to be found and the creator has gone a little mad from what I understand (https://www.facebook.com/262253294115914/posts/798860600455178/?d=n&substory_index=0)

 

Regular SwinSIDs are cheap as chips and seemingly easy to come by (eBay, etc.), but there’s lots of complaints about sound quality online. 
 

What’s the verdict on the ARMSID? I haven’t heard much about them?

 

Cheers.

 

[Noise-Generator]

I don’t know whats up with the gideon fpgasid, maybe this project is frozen meanwhile because the “other” fpgasid is out.

You have to take a look sometimes at the ordering page for the swinsid ultimate, this c64 products are sold out from time to time but the chance is good that they get back in stock because they mostly produce small stacks.

The swinsid is useful but sounds boring after a while. There is an alternative firmware for mbox sid with higher parameter spectrum http://www.swinkels.tvtom.pl/swinsid/ but have not tested this one (did not know that)

 

Follow the link to armsid there is a link to an order page, there you get audio-demos https://retrocomp.cz/produkt?id=2

There you can hear much of em…

There is also an arm2sid, a double sid and it does also fm. https://retrocomp.cz/produkt?id=20

It’s an emulation of this (OPL2) FM Chip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YM3812

I guess it would be possible to use this with a mbox sid but it sure needs some adjusting. Maybe it’s possible to put an alternative firmware inside a slave core. But, no, I don’t think so because you would have the same parameter Menu than the Master. By the way, the MBox FM uses an OPL3. 

 

What’s fine about these chips is the possibility to build some custom design with an exclusive sound but for this you need the know how (I don’t have)

Also, if you would build an alternative chip you would need to modify the mbox sid software.

All of those listed sid clones have some pros and cons but sound very similar cause they are designed for the c64 community as replacements.

[dwestbury]

On 4/2/2020 at 9:34 AM, Noise-Generator said:

There is also an arm2sid, a double sid and it does also fm. https://retrocomp.cz/produkt?id=20

It’s an emulation of this (OPL2) FM Chip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YM3812

I guess it would be possible to use this with a mbox sid but it sure needs some adjusting. Maybe it’s possible to put an alternative firmware inside a slave core. But, no, I don’t think so because you would have the same parameter Menu than the Master. By the way, the MBox FM uses an OPL3. 

It’s much cheaper to buy the ARM2SID pair than getting two individual ARMSIDs and you get the added benefit of FM capability. Although, I’m not sure it’s possible to take advantage of that with any of the current mbox firmwares?

This side-by-side sound comparison shows pretty good sound quality too: http://kompjut0r.blogspot.com/2018/04/sid-8580-vs-armsid-vs-swinsid-ultimate_12.html 

Is anyone actually using ARM2SID’s in their mbox SID yet? Wondering what level of customization would be required to get the basics operational? 

[Noise-Generator]

No big deal. It’s the same thing with all the stereo SIDs. You need to connect J14 of the second SID module of a Core to the additional input of the SID. I show you but you need to figure it out for the mb 6582. 

http://ucapps.de/mbhp/mbhp_8xsid_c64_psu_optimized.pdf

I don’t have on, already, if I had one I would describe this more precise but this is how it should work. 

 

For FM I don’t even have found a program for the C64. There is a demo out there which plays FM but no editor.

I don’t know how much possibilities you have to edit some FM, if you can, you will not see it correctly. So if you turn a knob it is possible that there are changes in sound but not the correct describtion in the lcd. I’m sure the FM engine is close to the SID, like same parameters for ADSR and stuff. However it is also very lack documentated and by saying that, I mean no documentation.

[dwestbury]

Doing a little digging with the mbhp_core_v3 schematic, I can see that J14 should be accessible from the PIC’s RD4 pin:

http://www.ucapps.de/mbhp/mbhp_core_v3.pdf

 

Following the relevant trace on the base PCB schematic shows this:

http://www.midibox.org/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=mb-6582:mb-6582_base_pcb_r2_color.pdf

 

Which is tied into the CS pin of U2_SID_ x _ :

http://archive.6502.org/datasheets/mos_6582_sid.pdf

 

 

Would I need to reroute this to make an ARM2SID pair work in U1_SID1 and U2_SID1 of my MB-6582?

 

Thx,

-Darrell

 

[Noise-Generator]

What I would do is,

take a precision socket or just a pin from a precision socket and solder a wire at it. Put the socket or the pin into the mb socket. 

[dwestbury]

Cheers  - If I decide to give the ARM2SID a shot I’ll report back.

 

[dwestbury]

Two quick updates:

First, I decided to order some ARM2SIDs to try out in my MB6582, so I should have them in a couple weeks, assuming all goes well with import customs, etc.

Second, it looks like Poly.play has a fresh batch of SwinSID Ultimates back in stock ~$44.50 USD (€38.02).

https://www.polyplay.xyz/SwinSID-Ultimate?jtl=v

From what I’ve read and heard, these sound (subjectively) closest to the real SID and they support external sound input, so you can use them with your distortion pots!

[dwestbury]

Guess what showed up in the mail today, fresh from the Czech Republic?

 

 

Sound test soon…

 

[Noise-Generator]

Fine Czech Republic, yes. Part of the Area was called Bohemia before 1918, just for further Information.

Question: Can you edit your ARMSID with Vice + Midibox via asid? Then I can add this to the Main Info.

 

[dwestbury]

18 minutes ago, Noise-Generator said:

 

Question: Can you edit your ARMSID with Vice + Midibox via asid? Then I can add this to the Main Info.

 

I was planning to configure them using my Ultimate 64 (https://ultimate64.com/Ultimate-64)

I can certainly give the Vice + ASID thing a try (Hmmm… Interesting)

 

[Rio]

look here:

<___base_url___>/topic/17538-vice-emulator-asid-hacks-linux-and-windows/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=154236&embedComment=154236&embedDo=findComment#comment-154236

I tested it with my real sids with the mbsidv2 .. it worked.

[dwestbury]

10 hours ago, Rio said:

I tested it with my real sids with the mbsidv2 .. it worked.

 

I’m guessing that SID playback should work, since that already works well to a MB-6582 or sammichSID using MIDI Patchbay and TK’s ASID mod for SIDPlayer.

< base_url >/topic/13303-sidplayer-asid-application-for-os-x/?do=embed&comment=185865&embedComment=185865&embedDo=findComment

 

However, using MIDI encapsulation to manage the ARM2SID config is an altogether different animal…

Waiting for a window of free time to give this a try though…

Cheers
 

 

[dwestbury]

I finally found a little window of time to plop a set of ARM2SIDs into a MIDIbox SID to play with some patches, and… _ WHOAH _…  

In my humble opinion, they perform exceptionally well.

I tested them with default configs (i.e., dropped them into a MIDIbox SID with no config changes), and can say that they combine a very low noise floor (e.g., nonexistent), and produce very accurate SID sound emulation, with reliably consistent volume levels, across all voices and various patches (So, Win -win-win… ).

The price-point for an ARM2SID set is ~$48 USD, which is a bit more expensive than purchasing 2 * SwinSIDs (which avg. ~$15-$20 each on eBay, or $30-$40 for a pair), but ARM2SIDS sound very accurate and produce consistently powerful output levels, irrespective of the patch chosen.

I’m more than happy to share sounds from some patches or a popular SID track, if anyone is interested.

 Best,

-Darrell

 

[jjonas]

If it’s possible to do a popular SID track (which I guess could be easily compared to something on YouTube), that would be great!

[dwestbury]

…Some sound samples…

 

 

[m00dawg]

Dang that’s pretty impressive to my ears! Especially the baseline. Delta sounded good but maybe not quiiiite what I read when I bust that out on my C64 (though that’s using a 6581). But super close! Seems like a pretty great alternative to real SIDs! Sorry if I missed it but does it fixed the ADSR bug or is that an optional toggle? As I recall, SwinSID fixes it (though I could be misremembering there)

[dwestbury]

As far as I know, ARMSID emulates the latest 6581 and 8580 releases (R4AR and R5 respectively), so the best sounding versions of each chip.

Delta was definitely composed for the 6581, whereas my ARMSIDs are setup to emulate an 8580, so there’s going to be some character differences there.

I also have a pair of SwinSID Ultimates coming in the mail (one of these days) from Poly.play, so it’ll be interesting to hear how they stack up.

[dwestbury]

N/A