MB SID V2 discussion?

[Razmo]

Hi (Thorsten)…

I’m not aware of any thread about discussion on the V2 project in particular?.. something passed my nose here? 

Well, I’ve read about the drum-part on the wishlist you wrote Thorsten and have a few questions:

You write that there will be allocated a special number of “slots” for specific drum-sounds, and I’m wondering if these drumsounds will be controlled using dedicated engines for every type of drum sound (Kick, Snare, Hihats etc.)? … or will all drumsounds use the same engine?

I believe that every type of drumsound could benefit from dedicated engines tailored specificly for that particular drumsound… in fact I believe that the only thing that would be nice to have on all drumsounds would be a wavetable player and a volume envelope… the different drumsounds (at least for real drumsynths) use widely different approaches to creating a particular drumsound. One could also figure out exactly what mechanisms are needed for all types of sounds and then make one universal drum-engine… that would certainly make it much more flexible.

If you want to find some good info on pro-drummachine sound-creation, then find the manual for Waldorf’s RackAttack (which I’ve had), it’s got a good deal of information on the subject including how the famous 808 and 909 was made.

I can though give a few VERY important things to do, to synthesize drumsounds if any help:

Bassdrum:

Almost no bassdrums use a filter, and in fact really cool bassdrum sounds can be created by only very few components, namely an oscillator (dooh!) and a single VERY specialized pitch envelope. The Envelope modulating the oscillators pitch MUST… and I repeat: MUST!!! have a logarithmic curve to it!.. yes! the curve parameter is VERY important here! … the pitch start out very high, and then drop down very fast, and then gradualy slows down (because of the curve parameter) until it reach it’s base which should be in the bass-frequency area (about 80 to 200 Hz). The logarithmic “punch” is responsible for the “click” on a bassdrum, and thus this envelope must be FAST!!! and with great resolution. The best oscillator waveform for the bassdrum is the sinewave… but since this is not achievable with SID, you’d have to go for the next best: Triangle… The others will work too, but will sound like distorted rave drums… a filter is not at all needed for kick-drums… not even wavetables  :o … it’s true!

Claps:

A clap is made from noise… and here the SID is marvelous since it give you many tonal variations elliminating the use for a filter here also.. The tricky part of this sound is, that it’s created by applying a very fast LFO to the noise that last for a defined cycle length… the waveshape of this LFO must be a SAWTOOTH with an up-going ramp, so that when the last cyckle has passed, the volume of the noise is at max. (yes… the LFO should modulate the amplitude, which poses a great problem here because of the SIDs envelope bug etc.). The number of LFO cycles and their speed should be adjustable… The problem is with modulating the volume, it have to be done in another way, and maybe by modulating the filter instead a similar result can be achieved, but that would make use of the filter which should be avoidable since other sounds need it more. I think that maybe a wavetable would do this much better by changing perhaps between a noise waveform and another waveform for some set duration… worth checking out.

Snaredrums:

Snaredrums are nothing more than noise with a volume envelope on it… that is, with analogue snaredrums though. The volume envelope should be logarithmic to get snappy sounds from it, but this is only achievable using the SIDs own envelope. usually such a snaredrum sound is kind of thin and uninterresting, but played on top of a bassdrum make it sound much much better (something rarely done in SID tunes). A wavetable would still do wonders as an extra feature on this sound to simulate a bit of “snare rattle” and could be done just like the clap sound… in fact maybe clap and snare could be done using the same engine here… normally a highpass filter would be indispensable on clap and snare to ive tonal variations (band pass also), but since the noise waveform is pitchable, it’s not that crucial.

Hihats:

Hihats are easily done using noise also, and the volume envelope must be short and snappy for the closed version, and logarithmic responsecurve is again a must. Luckily the decay part of SIDs own amp envelopes ARE logarithmic in nature, so that’s not a problem. Noise colour is also easy here due to the pitchable noise in SID. The open and closed version should be easy to make as they are basically the same noise sound… only the decay of the amp envelopes differ. it is crucial though, that these two sound cancel each other out, since these cannot sound at the same time.

Cymbals:

AAARGH! … impossible to synthesize really… even Waldorf have sampled cymbals in their RackAttack drummachine  … you CAN do some decent ones nontheless though I’d have to experiment on these… maybe ringmod is the key to this, but that will eat up TWO oscillators… guess there is no way around using the filter on this one to be realistic!  :

From all this you can see, that the filter do not play that big a role in drum programming… in fact it’s more usable as an “insert” effect to filter a drumsound in particular with static settings.. e.g. thinning a snare or highhat with a hipass filter, or “muffling” a bassdrum with a lowpass filter or maybe band pass a hihat etc.

So if your V2 model will use one core with two sids I asume that you would have six voices available at a time, and two filters right? or will they be stereo too?.. so in general all drumsounds could have it’s own filtersettings and if the drumsound is marked as using the filter it could use it, and if not, it could leave the filter registers alone for another drumsound to use. people would then just have to remember that no more than two filtered drumsounds can play at once.

The rest of teh drumtypes I’ll have a look at and let you know when I come up with something 

Hope you can use this info for something

Regards, Jess.

[Razmo]

You also wrote something about the delay time needed to properly make the SIDs own envelope work correctly could be calculated based on the ADSR values right?.. This means that the delay would difer between drumsounds with misc release rates which is not a good thing as drums should be dead-on tight! … Have you tried to write 0s into all ADSR regs before retriggering to achieve the least amount of delay? If this works, then GREAT! if not, then maybe eliminating the attack and release parameter totally would cure the problem by always writing 0s to these regs. I don’t think that the volume envelope would ever need to have either attack or release setting necessary… only the decay I’d say.

Also remember that drumsounds (especially bassdrums) benefit very much from the osc phase reset feature… this is obligatoric for good bassdrum sounds… other perc sounds as well…

Regards, Jess.

[Razmo]

Update!  ;D … I’ve testet the SID for bassdrums now with the current engine… I’ve come to the conclusion that really good drums is best created with the filter in addition to what I said before, mainly because the SID does not have a SINE waveform, and the filter helps out on this greatly!

I tested a simple setup with just ONE oscillator (different waveforms), ONE envelope (SIDs envelopes NOT used) and this envelope was routed to both cutoff and pitch. Oscillator phase reset was ON. and the CURVE parameter was used on the decay.

I then recorded several bassdrums using this basic setup tweaking only WAVEFORM, CURVE, ENV DEPTH and RESONANCE. The result was rather astonnishing… much better than I had anticipated!.. in fact I’ve not heard anything close to this in a SID tune before… the major reason for the sound is with the CURVE parameter.

I’ve got a sample for listening, if you guys have anywhere I can upload it.

I Used a 8580 SID… ofcourse  ;D

[T.K]

You write that there will be allocated a special number of “slots” for specific drum-sounds, and I’m wondering if these drumsounds will be controlled using dedicated engines for every type of drum sound (Kick, Snare, Hihats etc.)? … or will all drumsounds use the same engine?

Both. I want to use the same drum sound engine, but with dedicated parameter sets for each drum sound. Target should be to preload as many different drum sounds as possible into the RAM in order to switch fast between the parameter sets when new keys are played.

Maybe some background info you are missing: I’ve evaluated the requirements for a drum engine some time ago, and I wrote a special firmware dedicated for drums - see:

http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?topic=5703.0

key feature: 21 instrument patches are hold in RAM at the same time, and you can play them with individual keys polyphonic (!) Free voices are determined automatically (same concept like MBFM), and you can group instruments, so that they allocate the same voice (e.g. for HiHat)

The “final” firmware can be found in this thread as well (“mbsid-d_alpha3.zip”)

I never released it on my website, because I find that the usage is just too complicated for the world

Therefore I came to the conclusion, that for MBSIDV2 I have to downstrip the parameters for individual drum sounds in order to allow more induitive use - most important: fast results without the background knowledge that you’ve explained here

Thanks a lot for your descriptions on how to make these sounds, I’ve also some info about this in the book “Synthesizer” from Florian Anwander, but it’s long time ago I read it, and I never found the time for searching the perfect drum patches

Here you could really help me!

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Razmo]

Hi Thorsten!

I’d be glad to help… I’ve already started researching how to do drumsounds the smartest way using SID… Snares are bugging me a bit, but I’ll get there 

I’ll try and come up with a minimum parameter list of the various types of drumsounds… then you can try and see if you agree with me on them 

I can start out with the bassdrum very easily:

1. Pitch (fundamental pitch the sound is modulated on)

2. EG Pitch modulation (amount of EG pitch modulation)

3. Cutoff (fundamental cutoff the sound is modulated on)

4. EG Cutoff modulation (amount of EG cutoff modulation)

5. EG Decay Rate (decay rate of the EG)

6. EG Decay Curve (curve of the EG)

7. EG Velocity Sensitivity (EG intensity)

8. Oscillator Control Select TRI/SAW/REC/NOI/PHASE/FILTER

9. Pulsewidth

10. Filter Resonance

These parameters is all necessary to make cool bassdrum sounds of “real analog” feel. I’ve not included wavetables in the parameter section…

The only MIDI parameter that can directly influence individual drums is velocity, so it’s important to have this included to modulate the EG, so that the bassdrums can be dynamic.

The filter only need to know if it’s on or off because the type used will always be the lowpass type, and the rest of the control of the filter is dynamically allocated according to the voice used.

This is the least amount of paramters I can come up with to keep it both flexible and easy to use.

Regards, Jess.

[stryd_one]

I like to think of myself as a bit of a drum synthesis fanatic, maybe I can help with the snares? Whats the problem?

I thought I should say, I don’t think too much attention should be paid to the architectures of old when designing a new synth… Although it’s definitely a good thing to be able to replicate those classic sounds, I think it’s even better to craft new ones entirely

[Razmo]

Hi Stryd 

Well… the problem is, that I’ve not researched snaredrums that much yet  ;D … I’ve messed a bit around with the SID to make one snaredrum, but I tried to do it without using the filter as the filter is global for all three oscillators of each SID, so the less drums that can be done without the filter, the better. It’s just VERY disappointing without filter and wavetable use. useless I’d say…

The question is if it’s possible to make some of the drumsounds without the filter… a drumsound must be able to use the filter or not, and if not, leave the filter alone for another drumsound to use… the less drumsounds that do NOT use a filter, the less likely any “filter stealing” will occur.

Careful programming of the drumtrack and selection of filtered/non-filtered drumsounds is what will make the day, and in drumtracks with careful programming you could easily make a decent rythm with even just two tracks, and rarely does these sounds in one track overlap, so in general a two-track drumgroove could have all drumsounds utilize the filter! The rest of the four channels (unfiltered) could easily do noises, snaps, zaps and FX without the need for any filter at all.

I also agree that you do not need to go for the old style sound, but nonetheless, it should be there!.. it’s SID nostalgica! … and it’s nothing more than adding a wavetable to every drumsound… that is all there is to it … instant hubbard drums!  … also, wavetables with the other features included could make some totally new style of drums not even possible with any other drum-machine!

All this has led me to think about the four subsystems that Thorsten want to include in the new design. I’m thinking that maybe one more subsystem would be approprite, namely one that deals with Effects… and here I mean really long and evolving effects with lots of LFOs with feedback and other wondrous features. One thing I relly need in my studio is a machine dedicated to synthesizing real-time effects like these, instead of relying on static samples as i most often do. With all the Pitch, Pulsewidth, cutoff, resonance modulations possible, one could do some rather impressive effects… I’m thinking wild and crazy effects like in the Paradroid game from the C64… just a thought.

Regards, Jess.

[Jaicen]

With regards to synthesising snares on the SID, this could prove difficult. To get a really good snare sound, you’re going to have to use two channels, there’s no way around it that I can see.

An analogue snare ‘hit’ is made up of 2 basic components: A sine wave tone (PITCH) and filtered noise attack.

The noise is used to simulate the rattle of the snare (obviously!), so it needs to have a different decay curve, one that is slightly longer than the decay of the pitch. The pitch of the snare from the sine generator is what gives the drum sound its tone, rather than sounding like gated noise. Ideally, you’d use two sine oscillators tuned 1:1.4 apart to simulate the non-harmonic oscillations of a drum skin but this is obviously not practical in this case.

The pitched portion of the snare hit should have a fast attack and a fast decay. Extending the decay is detrimental to the illusion as it were, and you end up with more of a Tom sound.

I don’t think it would be possible to simulate this using the wavetable function, as the noise and pitch need to be triggered simultaneously, they just have different decay curves.

[T.K]

All this has led me to think about the four subsystems that Thorsten want to include in the new design. I’m thinking that maybe one more subsystem would be approprite, namely one that deals with Effects… and here I mean really long and evolving effects with lots of LFOs with feedback and other wondrous features. One thing I relly need in my studio is a machine dedicated to synthesizing real-time effects like these, instead of relying on static samples as i most often do. With all the Pitch, Pulsewidth, cutoff, resonance modulations possible, one could do some rather impressive effects… I’m thinking wild and crazy effects like in the Paradroid game from the C64… just a thought.

I considered this subsystem, but then I decided to put this all into the MBSID Lead engine - all the new possibilities (enhanced modulation matrix, trigger matrix, independent wavetables, Waldorf XT like modifiers/operators) will provide enough fun for the next year, and the rest will be implemented in MBSID V3

Here an example, that the slight enhancements of MIDIbox FM (crossconnections between LFOs, multistate envelope) can already lead to wonderful effects: http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?topic=6542.0 - hard to imagine, how the next generation will sound

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Razmo]

AARGH Thorsten!  :o don’t start talking about V3… makes me feel bad!  ;D … well, as long as good, long evolving FX can be done with the LEAD module… fine with me  :D…

And Jaicen; about the snaredrum; I can see that doing this with one osc. SID is difficult. Now I asume you are talking about a REAL snaredrum… yes, that’s a hard one to crack, but to some degree it has to be done anyways… with one osc… Also, other snares that are more analogue in nature are different from a REAL snaredrum… just have to do the best with what is available I guess… I’m thinking about messing about a bit with the band pass filter to see what I can come up with..

Regards, Jess.

[Jaicen]

I’ll second that TK, slow down a bit so I can catch up before you go making  me doubly obsolete

With regards to the snare drum, i’m talking about how it’s achieved in an analogue fashion, with a little theory from the real thing.

There’s a few nice articles on SOSpubs.co.uk about synthesising drums, which most people have probably already seen. That gives a lot of good theory, particularly about the way Roland made their 808 & 909 kits. With the exception of the 909, all Roland/boss snares (at least from the CR-78 onwards) use two oscillators, one for pitch and one for noise (snappy). I can’t see a way around this approach, but maybe i’m getting tunnel vision! I’d definitely be interested in hearing what you come up with re: the bandpass filtering.

[stryd_one]

Sorry I’ve gone all silent guys. I’ve got a post on the way shortly… It’s kinda long and I’m kinda busy so it’s taking ages

[Razmo]

Well… I’m still fiddling with the Snaredrum sound… It’s really a pain in the … I do not believe that there is any way around it without the use of the wavetable… In fact I believe that a Clap sound is rather easy to do with the wavetable, just doing a rapid change between noise and triangle… in fact this is also the bestway to make a 1osc snaredrum, and after listening to a few SID tunes, I can hear that this is also the common way to do snaredrums. Nothing more than Noise/triangle alternation fast, and with a decay on the amp envelope. The sound could though get better by the use of the filter. I tried the filter a bit, and if both BP and HP are enabled I found to get the best results. A little bit of pitch bend in the beginning also adds to the realism, just not too much or it’ll start sopunding more like a tom.

I’m beginning to get the feeling, that maybe it would be a good idear to implement a feature where you can choose if the drum-engine should use 1osc per drumsoundm, or if people like it; three per drumsound. This will leave us with just two tracks per drumtrack, but it will give much better sounds (more oscillators, and the crucial use of the ring modulation and syncronization !!!)… als, the filter can then be on every drumsound playing, as drumsounds rarely overlap.

Think about a typpical drumtrak:

Bassdrum and open hihats are almost always playing at different times (offbeat hihats). so these could go on the same channel, and also a few closed hihats… nothing needs to be overlapped here. Then all we need more to get the general dance type rythm is the snaredrum wich could be on the other channel, as this should sound at the same time as the bassdrum. There would be plenty of free space when the snaredrum is not playing more other drumsound/efects to accompany the groove.

Personally I think I would go for the two-track solution in all situations. Better (way better!) sounds… also, if the filter can be used on all sounds, then perhaps you could do without using the SID envelopes which will result in much punchier sounds and better timing. Also the new ENV2->volume reg could be used on a sound, and still get a good AMP decay.

Ring modulation would come in handy when creating gongs, and cymbals also. I just think that the drumsounds in general would get much more varied with this approach.

Regards, Jess.

[Razmo]

Alrighty then!  :o … I just took a three oscillator snare with SID, and I’m amazed!  … It just sound awesome compared to one oscillator! … I’ve made two MP3’s now ; one with bassdrums and one with snaredrums… If anyone are interrested in listening, just say so…

I’m certain, that if I was doing the engine, I’d make it a two-track/2 SID solution… the sound quality is just much much better this way…

I found that one oscillator doing noise, and two doing a triangle detuned one semitone (to give it a more unpitched quality) gives a rather good snaresound… I also applied a fast envelope to the triangles pitch (like the bassdrum, with fast curve), and that certainly give a lot of extra punch! … also, no envelopes of the SID were used, so it’s dead-on punchy and timing is rock solid.  8)

Also, I used the filter with both BP and HP enabled, doing a sweep to thin out the noise with time… very useable!

Regards, Jess.

[stryd_one]

Well… I’m still fiddling with the Snaredrum sound… It’s really a pain in the … I do not believe that there is any way around it without the use of the wavetable… In fact I believe that a Clap sound is rather easy to do with the wavetable, just doing a rapid change between noise and triangle… in fact this is also the bestway to make a 1osc snaredrum, and after listening to a few SID tunes, I can hear that this is also the common way to do snaredrums. Nothing more than Noise/triangle alternation fast, and with a decay on the amp envelope. The sound could though get better by the use of the filter. I tried the filter a bit, and if both BP and HP are enabled I found to get the best results. A little bit of pitch bend in the beginning also adds to the realism, just not too much or it’ll start sopunding more like a tom.

I’m beginning to get the feeling, that maybe it would be a good idear to implement a feature where you can choose if the drum-engine should use 1osc per drumsoundm, or if people like it; three per drumsound. This will leave us with just two tracks per drumtrack, but it will give much better sounds (more oscillators, and the crucial use of the ring modulation and syncronization !!!)…

Yeh that’s basically what I was going to say, only I crapped on for about 5 paragraphs or so about fourier theory and harmonics and spectral content and why the ringmod/sync is so crucial… No need for all that now, you obviously experimented and found out the real way

I’m not sure how you came to the figure of two tracks per drumtrack? I think I’ve missed something

That said, I disagree with quite a few things you’ve said so far, which I believe is due to your perception of a “typical” drum track…

als, the filter can then be on every drumsound playing, as drumsounds rarely overlap.

My drums overlap all the time, it’s integral to producing the style of music I do…

Think about a typpical drumtrak:

Is there any such thing?

Bassdrum and open hihats are almost always playing at different times (offbeat hihats).

Can’t agree at all

the snaredrum <SNIP> should sound at the same time as the bassdrum.

Maybe in techno/house/etc, but not in breakbeat-land… I think I actually laughed at a DnB producer for doing that once ;D

Also the new ENV2->volume reg could be used on a sound, and still get a good AMP decay.

I’m mostly concerned with attack times when it comes to drums…

Ring modulation would come in handy when creating gongs, and cymbals also. I just think that the drumsounds in general would get much more varied with this approach.

Absolutely, IMO when it comes to drums, a pair of oscs with ringmod is a must-have. I read this:

SID allows the microprocessor to read the changing output of the third oscillator and third envelope generator. These outpus can be used as a source of modulation information for creating vibrato, frequency/filter sweeps and similar effects.

Geez FM would be nice

PS Don’t you just F*n LOVE that rackattack!? I think I’m gonna get another one

PPS I see you’ve made another post, you’re discovering everything I had in my original post heheheh Don;t forget we’ll have 8 SIDs in these things, don’t be so oscilllator-shy

[Jaicen]

So we’re all agreed that it can’t be done with just one oscialltor? Glad we’ve got that settled

Now get those MP3’s over to me so I can hear the fruits of your labours!

jaicen_solo AT hotmail.com or register on www.putfile.com and host them (free) for everyone to hear!

[T.K]

You could also email me the .mp3 files, so that I can put them on the midibox server

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Razmo]

Hi Thorsten… I will mail you the mp3’s then… email addy? 

Please note that the MP3’s are first-time quick makes… they could be made much better by using more time on them, but they give a good view of the possibilities of SID in drumsounds, when you use more than one oscillator 

And about my generalisation of drumtracks… well… you’re right  ;D .. I’m a typpical boom-tchh-boom-tchh kind of musician… surely overlapping drums are necessary… it will just be up to the programmer to time it…

When I mentioned two tracks, i’m refering to the fact that Thorsten wrote that one core can hold one engine, but control two SID modules… which mean that you’d have two SIDs with Drum engines… that’s two tracks if 3oscs is used per SID. 6 if used with single osc.

Regards, Jess.

[Razmo]

To Stryd:

Yeah! The Rack Attack is a wonderful machine… I know that now!  I sold mine some time ago, because it works in a KIT fashion… I’ve always been used to selecting between an arsenal of sampled drumsounds… always finding KITs to be limmiting. What I really need is a machine that will be more easy to program, and more taylored agains specific drums… in other words: a drumkit that will allow quick parameter changing in an easy engine… much like what Thorsten want with his SID drumkit. The Rack Attack is MUCH more flexible, but when you choose a kit, there is not much to tweak unless you dive into the grand arsenal of parameters… which is not very musically creative for me. fast and intuitive… that’s me 

In fact I like the aproach of the Novation Drumstation, Elektron Machine-drum or the Jomox Airbase 99… All of these are specificly geared towards tweaking the drumsounds fast, and adjusting them on the fly… if I had the money, I’d go for the Machine drum, and for cheap, the Drumstation… But I think I’ll eventually get an Airbase since it has REAL analogue sounds on it.

So… my view on the one-osc. version of the SID drum engine is, that if only ONE oscillator becomes available for a sound, then I’ll most probably not use the engine at all, because it’s too limitting. If the 3osc theroy is used, I’d be willingly creating a lot of kits for it for everyone here at the forum  ;D

Regards, Jess.

[Razmo]

Hey Thorsten!? 

Have you ever thought about making a drum-engine solely for the MBFM!? … Making drums with FM is really awesome!.. In fact I would say that it’s better than normal subtractive synthesis methods. Amp envelopes of Yamaha’s FM chips are logarithmic in nature, and the amount of possible metallic timbres possible makes FM very cool for drumsounds if you just know how to make them… just a thought…

I’m not aware of what parameters on an Yamaha FM chip that is actually modifiable using PIC envelopes anf LFOs and what is just internal hardware that cannot be changed… do you have any spec-datasheets on your FM chip? …

I could use A dedicated drum-box, and I think that maybe a dedicated one for your MBFM could make something really cool… if not an interest of yours, I might take up the coding of it myself.

Regards, Jess.