Intent to sell midiboxes

Sale Requests
21

Hi Smash and others!

I think, you know, what you wrote, but it’s way too cool not to quote it again:

Quote

Yay for you, now we all fully understand your contempt for this community and we can kill file your posts accordingly.

[…]

in this post? I remember… were you lying then or now?

Maybe we have just some difficulties in understanding each other. Maybe the semantic construction of the word -irony- is unknown in american english, or at least so much unpopular, that you are not used to it.

Hm, i think, i never said “commercial” about my midibox. Yeah. Suppose, I said exactly the opposite. You said, I’d be commercial. So I only repeated it. But also, I love lying, it makes the world go round.

Yeah, I love lying. Lying next to my boyfriend.

AND:

This posting is not related to my production line in china.

  • What production line in china?

There is no such thing like a midibox production line in china!

So wag the dog!

okay: [/irony]

Talk about legal issues and keep the project going on. Keep knowing, what you need to know and everything is fine. Pay your attorney for the legal issues, if you think he’s worth it. I think this discussion is lame, and if not, at least extremely funny. And if you don’t want to stand reality, just delete all my files. …paranoid.

bye, jamram.

22

Check your info resources for the term “infringement of trade dress”.  I have several thousand examples of the word MBHP printed on my PCBs, that is considered legally (in both of our countries) to be part of the trade dress of my “product”.  MBHP can be easily proven to specifically mean MIDI Box Hardware Platform in court.

I’m not sure what you’re referring to by “trade dress”; I’ve never heard that term before.  I assume you’re referring to what, in UK law, is called a “trademark”, a restriction on the use of an actual name.  This is not an issue as I don’t intend on using the terms “MIDIbox”, “MBHP”, or any other trade marks, in selling my boxes.

Also, just out of curiousity, why is it OK for you to sell MIDIbox-related products, but not OK for me to sell MIDIbox-related products?

Robert

23

… designed to maintain one’s safety and wellbeing. It would be a shame if your shipment were to disappear, or a business partner, leaving you minus large sums of cash or friends.

I noticed this in your previous post; you’re actually threatening.  Ye gods man, are you really that much of a knuckle dragger?  Do you think people are going to cower in the face of stryd_one’s assertion that their wellbeing is not guaranteed if they sell MIDIboxes?

Are these the ethics of the MIDIbox community?

Robert

24

you might even start producing new devices down the road, for profit or otherwise

Erm.. that’s my stated goal.  Profit is not involved, however.

Robert

25

you people are like parasites, stop it and f ;D k off.

you are not giving anything positive, just want to take…

people here just have a hobby building midiboxes and beeing busy as a community with developing, and most don’t like it when people are taking financial advantage of this, especially concidering  the people who put in the most work don’t even do this.

If you like midiboxing as a hobby just keep up hanging around, asking relevant things etc. But if you want to produce and sell MIDI equipment you would have to…

develop your own hardware and software platform!!! but this takes time, time you waste lying around and irritating other people

And if you don’t want to stand reality

as you may know there are many realities, don’t wanna stand in yours too much

26

Are these the ethics of the MIDIbox community?

Robert,

I am Jeffry and i am an asshole. To keep my status i ask you the following:

1st  Did you ever helped some here on the forum?

2nd  Have you ever build a midibox and shared information?

3rd  Have you contributed to the community with your own written code?

4th  Have you contributed to the community with a how to build manual?

5th  Have you contributed to the community with a frontpanel design?

6th  Have you contributed to the community with a case design?

7th  Have you shared your resources on getting parts needed?

8th  Have you shown respect and gratittude towards Thorsten of what he has given to the community?

Since you do not comply with any of those the awnser is a big YES!.

Now stop whining like a little child whom’s mom say’d “no you cannot have that candy eat your dinner first”

My advice stop it now make a new start and do those 8 lines. And then we discuss this again. period.

Thank you for reading.

27

I’m not sure what you’re referring to by “trade dress”; I’ve never heard that term before.  I assume you’re referring to what, in UK law, is called a “trademark”, a restriction on the use of an actual name.  This is not an issue as I don’t intend on using the terms “MIDIbox”, “MBHP”, or any other trade marks, in selling my boxes.

Well see that’s a problem…You have to use those words when you open your source.  A trademark is part of your trade dress, and if you do a little reasearch into judgements of cases on IP you will find trade dress as the start and end to many suits.

Do you honestly think it’s alright to erase the name from something and sell it as your own?

Also, just out of curiousity, why is it OK for you to sell MIDIbox-related products, but not OK for me to sell MIDIbox-related products?

Let me first clear up your question…I sell MIDIbox related products, while you are proposing to sell finished MIDIboxes.  There is a fundamental difference.

A quick forum search from years ago would turn up the answers for this question, but I’ll repeat here for clarity:

  1. I started by asking Thorsten’s permission, and he granted it.

Not that there needs to be a number 2, but:

  1. I only sell components, not complete modules or boxes.

Smash

28

Erm.. that’s my stated goal.  Profit is not involved, however.

Robert

ahhh sure ur goals is PLURish

im sure u want to do this from the bottom of ur kind heart and give the boxes away for charity

29

Well see that’s a problem…You have to use those words when you open your source.

Umm.. I have to offer copies of Thorsten’s MIOS sources if I’m to be in compliance with the GPL.  That doesn’t involve trademark infringement.  Trademark infringement would be, for example, an eBay auction page that uses the term “MBHP”, or a box with “MIDIbox” printed on it.

Do you honestly think it’s alright to erase the name from something and sell it as your own?

No I don’t.  But then I don’t intend on erasing any names.  What do you believe I will be erasing the name from?

Let me first clear up your question…I sell MIDIbox related products, while you are proposing to sell finished MIDIboxes.  There is a fundamental difference.

You haven’t answered the question.  Obviously there is a difference between a completed MIDIbox and a PCB.  What I’m asking is: what is the difference, in terms of what is given permission and what isn’t?

Robert

30

Umm.. I have to offer copies of Thorsten’s MIOS sources if I’m to be in compliance with the GPL.  That doesn’t involve trademark infringement.  Trademark infringement would be, for example, an eBay auction page that uses the term “MBHP”, or a box with “MIDIbox” printed on it.

You are getting confused here.  Infringement starts when you use someone else’s design for your own product without their permission. 

With the MIDIbox you need two things to keep you out of court, GPL compliance AND Thorstens express written permission.  Set the GPL aside for a moment and remember Thorsten still owns real copyrights on HIS work, and by extension the trade dress of any derivites.  No interpretation of the GPL can change this.

Please consult a real IP attorney soon on this stuff, not just advice from the net!

You haven’t answered the question.  Obviously there is a difference between a completed MIDIbox and a PCB.  What I’m asking is: what is the difference, in terms of what is given permission and what isn’t?

I can’t answer this completely (I’m not Thorsten), But I have a few guesses:

I started with asking permission, not any statement of intent about what I was going to do with  other people’s work.

I re-designed the layouts to make them more “home-etch” freindly (community)

I still answer many build-related questions via email and private msg. (community)

I don’t profiteer.  Know any other projects with $5 pro boards?  Didnt think so.  Anyone with simple math skills knows profit is not my motive here.

Answers to your last few questions are easily found by doing a forum search.  Been discussed ad nauseam  years ago.  :wink:

SmashTV

31

You are getting confused here.  Infringement starts when you use someone else’s design for your own product without their permission.

Whose design for what?  You haven’t said what, exactly, contains IP within the MIDIbox project, except the MIOS and trademark “MBHP” and neither of these stop me, or anybody else, selling MIDIboxes.

Thorsten still owns real copyrights on HIS work

What work exactly?

I can’t answer this completely (I’m not Thorsten)

Then why did you say anything in the first place?  Thorsten and I have already resolved the issue.  I’m just waiting for you to swing this hammer of logic, as promised.  To be frank, you just seem to be talking rubbish.  Legally, there would seem to be nothing whatsoever to stop me from selling MIDIboxes.  Wanting there to be legal way to stop selling of MIDIboxes doesn’t mean there is a legal way to prevent selling of MIDIboxes.

Robert

32

Whose design for what?  You haven’t said what, exactly, contains IP within the MIDIbox project, except the MIOS and trademark “MBHP” and neither of these stop me, or anybody else, selling MIDIboxes.

The whole concept and the fact that it is released with the rule of “no commercial use”.

All of your arguments are seriously flawed if you don’t regognize that ALL of this is IP owned by Thorsten.  He’s just nice enough to share with anyone without profiteering goals.

What work exactly?  MIOS, the bootloader, all of it.  It’s his work, and his right to restrict its commercial use.  The GPL does not give that right away, no matter how you try to read it. Maybe in the absense of the “no commercial use” statement found here, but since that was said, any legal commercial use requires TK’s permission.

Again please ask a real attorney about this stuff!

Then why did you say anything in the first place?

Because you asked?

Thorsten and I have already resolved the issue.

Great, care to fill us in on exactly what you resolved, so we don’t have to continue to guess your intention as it changes?  What is your plan  today, for profit or not?

I’m just waiting for you to swing this hammer of logic, as promised.  To be frank, you just seem to be talking rubbish.

Fine, that’s your opinion.  I’m ready to test it in court, are you? 

Legally, there would seem to be nothing whatsoever to stop me from selling MIDIboxes.  Wanting there to be legal way to stop selling of MIDIboxes doesn’t mean there is a legal way to prevent selling of MIDIboxes.

Check yourself on “there would seem”…Please get a real lawyer to help clarify this whole issue for you, it’s not my job to teach you about business law in the real world. 

Test my arguments with real professionals, and they will all tell you it’s enough  to win an infringement case.

Besides, I can "legally " tie you up in court for as long as needed, all other arguments about legal and right and wrong aside…Since I obviously can’t put the spirit of this community in words you can understand.

So you have a choice, cheap lesson now, or expensive lesson later.

SmashTV

33

hello rah,

Then why did you say anything in the first place?  Thorsten and I have already resolved the issue.  I’m just waiting for you to swing this hammer of logic, as promised.  To be frank, you just seem to be talking rubbish.  Legally, there would seem to be nothing whatsoever to stop me from selling MIDIboxes.  Wanting there to be legal way to stop selling of MIDIboxes doesn’t mean there is a legal way to prevent selling of MIDIboxes.

Robert

It’s exactly my opinion. I think, a few people haven’t understood the GPL and neither have their attorneys. And some people live in an other reality. I don’t understand why somebody would spend any money on legal discussions about midiboxes. Take a look at the specs of the MOS6581 for example. You’ll find a reference design for the circuitry. Same thing for the PIC. It took me one day to get a pcb out of EAGLE, everything layouted by myself. The development depth of the core-board circuitry is maybe slightly above public domain. PSU development in MBHP way is state of the art. The only thing concerning the SID, that could be worth an attorneys effort would be MIOS and SID-application. But both of them are GPL.

Anybody, who likes to sell a midibox compatible hardware platform and is willing to spend one day in redesign, can do this without fear of legal harrassment. If this wasnt intended, it shouldn’t have be GPL’ed.

SmashTV knows about the redesign efforts. He said he has done this. And so have I for myself. But I will NOT present it to a community with this kind of ethics.

If you really want to start a business, I can take over the trading in Germany, if u like ;o)

(Is it that, what you wanted to read from me, SmashTV? Okay, here u are!)

greetinx, jamram

34

If you really want to start a business, I can take over the trading in Germany, if u like ;o)

From where, the college lab?

Your desperation to argue is funny to me, along with the fact that your gay lifestyle only seems to be a problem for you, yet you keep trying to make it an issue when irrelevant.

(Is it that, what you wanted to read from me, SmashTV? Okay, here u are!)

blah blah whatever, you need to look somewhere else for a fight.

I hope you really trust in rah’s business practices, since now you will be co-defendants assuming either of you can manage anything better than a hot-glue constructed SID on eBay.

35

Maybe choosing the GPL wasn’t a clever idea - my main intention was, that I wanted to give back something to the GNU community as a tribute for the great GNU software I’m using for myself. Of course, it was very clear to me, that this also opened the possibility for everybody to run my software on commercial designs, but at the time I made the decision, it wasn’t predictable that the project could ever get such a big acceptance, that even those salesmen become interested.

However, you might find reasons to call me a naive guy, but I want to give you following considerations:

At any time I can switch to another license like the Creative Commons (see http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/) in order to protect my designs against people who are trying to use it in a direction which I don’t like.

Of course, this means that old software versions released under GPL are still free in the terms of this license. You can make variations and alterations, you could even develop something wonderful based on the old stuff.

But such a step would also mean, that you will be prevented from keeping your “products” up-to-date to the main branch - all tries will either lead to a lot of effort at your side, or they will be illegal.

Worst case for your venture: if I would switch to another hardware platform. An easy step for DIY people, a financial  risk for yourself.

Also your reputation won’t be the best if the press or your feedback on EBay says “nice product, but sold against the will of the originator, and therefore not supported”

I definietly don’t want to say, that nobody else but me could realize such projects (far from it - experts should know, that there are flaws which are hard to change without a major redesign - I’ve learned from it, you not), but I think that I’m allowed to say, that all people who follow the “MIDIbox spirit” will have a big advantage: a great community which is giving a lot of inspirations, which helps to debug and improve the projects, which motivates to continue and to realize things which are just different from commercial stuff you can find on the market.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

36

The whole concept

Concepts are only covered by patents.  Unless Thorsten has an patent on the MBHP, which I find very unlikely, the concept is open to exploitation, legally, regardless of how much you might hate that fact.

the fact that it is released with the rule of “no commercial use”.

ALL of this is IP owned by Thorsten

What work exactly?  MIOS, the bootloader, all of it.

You keep saying “it” and “this” and make other ambiguous references to something which has IP rights attached to it but you still haven’t said what that something is.  I was expecting you to point out what this something is; to swing the hammer of logic.  You haven’t done that.  It’s like you believe Thorsten has a claim against anyone making a DIY MIDI controller.

A concept or an idea isn’t covered by IP law unless a patent is involved.  Copyrights apply to a work of some sort; be it some words, or some music, or whatever.  I don’t believe I have to copy any such works in order to build a MIDIbox, except to download the web page to my browser and I understand the judicial position so far is that viewing web pages on the public internet is not considered copyright infringement.  If I copied files from www.ucapps.de and tried to sell those, then there would be a copyright issue.  Building a MIDIbox using the ideas on somebody’s public web pages doesn’t, as far as I can tell, infringe on any copyrights.

Trademarks would only be applicable if I were to use them in decoration or sales literature, or trade on their value in some other way.  The only IP left is a registered design which only applies to the outside of a product, and even then they have to be explicitly registered.  I certainly don’t intend on copying anybody’s enclosure or surface designs, regardless of whether they’ve registered them, which I doubt anybody has anyway.

So what, exactly, is this “something” that has IP rights involved, that you are so adament exists?

Again please ask a real attorney about this stuff!

If I expected to have to face any legal challenges I would.  It seems to me you don’t have a leg to stand on.  Regardless, I haven’t even bought any components for my own MIDIbox yet, so that would seem a little premature.

Great, care to fill us in on exactly what you resolved

We resolved, or at least I suggested and wasn’t rebuffed, that the issue should be shelved until such time as the benefits are clear.

so we don’t have to continue to guess your intention as it changes?

My intention hasn’t changed since I posted it.  I can’t imagine why you would think it had changed.

What is your plan  today, for profit or not?

As noted in my original post, I don’t expect to make any profit.  That doesn’t mean no profit will be made, but it does mean that I’m not doing it for profit.  That seems, to me, to be pretty much exactly what you do with the PCBs.

it’s not my job to teach you about business law in the real world

Indeed it isn’t.  It was was the job of my university lecturer, and I think he did pretty well.

Besides, I can "legally " tie you up in court for as long as needed, all other arguments about legal and right and wrong aside

Courts really, really don’t like it when people do that.  And you just stated your intent to do so.  Let me make a suggestion: be quiet.

Robert

37

If you really want to start a business, I can take over the trading in Germany, if u like ;o)

I’m not interested in starting a business, but I am interested in building MIDIboxes.  The only the reason I mentioned a limited company is that it might be a convenient framework to present the boxes to the public.  It would also provide financial benefits in the form of tax breaks if the sales reached a decent volume.  That means cheaper components, PCB etching, etc.

Robert

38

Your desperation to argue is funny to me, along with the fact that your gay lifestyle only seems to be a problem for you

:o

If I’d known I was talking to a homophobe, I wouldn’t have bothered with you.

39

:o

If I’d realised I was talking to a homophobe,

You completely misunderstood my comment, I am not a homophobe.  I was only trying to point out that his statements about his gay-ness have no relevance whatsoever to this issue, and you should be wondering why your only ally here  thinks this is the place for that discussion…He’s trolling for a reaction to anything, pure and simple.

I could really care less if he plays for the other team, quite a few of my good freinds do.

Or maybe you don’t misunderstand, and your position here is so futile that you welcome any help even if they dilute your argument into oblivion…

So what’s next?  The race card?

I wouldn’t have bothered with you.

Sorry son, you have no choice but to bother with me, as I have been here for years and I’ll still be here when you are gone.  :wink:

Did you ever stop to think, if this were the right thing to do, why the other 5000 members of this community have not done it already? 

If you really want to bring this down to some personal argument,I’ll lock this thread and we can move to a private chat…But don’t call me something I’m not.

40

You completely misunderstood my comment, I am not a homophobe.  I was only trying to point out that his statements about his gay-ness have no relevance whatsoever to this issue

Indeed; I appologise.  I misread your comment.  What threw me is that I can’t actually find any mention of sexuality anywhere in this discussion (and I still can’t so I have to wonder, what comments are you talking about?)

and you should be wondering why your only ally here  thinks this is the place for that discussion

I’m not interested in any “ally”; like you said, this is a discussion not a bloody war.  I’m not interested in sides or winning or losing, I’m interested in clarifying whatever misunderstanding has caused the very obvious friction, regardless of whose misunderstanding it is.  Unfortunately, that seems to be an impossible task as other people do seem to be concentrating on winning something.

Sorry son, you have no choice but to bother with me, as I have been here for years and I’ll still be here when you are gone.  :wink:

I would just point out that I could ignore your comments, like I have others’.

Did you ever stop to think, if this were the right thing to do, why the other 5000 members of this community have not done it already? 

As noted, it seems other people are doing it.  Both yourself and Mike (whoever he may be) are selling PCBs.  I haven’t had an answer yet as to how my intent is ethically different from yours.  To me, it seems that there is no ethical difference.  I suspect you may see a difference that doesn’t exist because you’ve made assumptions about my motivation.

Robert