Inside the OBERHEIM MATRIX 12 & UK UPS is USELESS ! (photos & chips) UPPED

well its much the same argument with the matrix 1000 as it is with the commodore computers ..theres alot of people from the computing world which would object with horror at old commodores being completely trashed for a sound chip.

I’m one of them!  I couldn’t bring myself to trash my old C64 either, and hate the idea of perfectly good hardware being ransacked for two chips, like a rhino for its horn, elephant for its tusks, shark for its fins, gorilla for its hands, etc.  they’re all perfectly good animals!  Of course the hardware isn’t alive (though some would argue otherwise :slight_smile: ) … nonetheless when I could buy a working Commodore on the 'bay for $15 and sell one chip inside for $20 to a wider market than the original hardware and at 1/8 to 1/10 my actual shipping cost for the C64 breadbox+PSU, the economic equation was pretty simple to junk the rest.  It’s changing somewhat and C64 prices have risen, but there are still hundreds of thousands out there.  No idea how many M1000 / M6R’s may be out there.

whereas adding a module to a m1000 in a way which it could be removed if it was really desired is pretty non destructive. and going the route that requires the original hardware, could help prevent the remaining stock of spare chips for the synths drying up so quick.

Agreed.  Another issue here is the fact it IS old hardware and that stock would be needed for everyone, *including* the DIY-module builders.  Keeping up the DIY-only, open-source philosophy would at least limit the commercialization, though speculative buyers are always a problem for any such market.

unfortunately speeding up the program alone wouldnt work, amoungst other things, the timing specifically relates to the midi & chip bus rates & without finding out where their ratio flags are; it would completely knock everything out of sync & out of touch.

far easier to take note of the 3396 or multiplexer chips (if fast enough to be useful) communication protocols & work a mios implementation from there.. which allows for the addition of things like boatloads of envelopes & modulation sources :slight_smile:

Right, I mis-spoke a bit, in that I wasn’t implying use of the original firmware (which is for our purposes a “black box” with little to no documentation or meaningful source code), just an emulation of that processor if necessary for precise timing issues or whatever else, in order to avoid sync problems.  I was assuming with a whole-number multiplier, stepping down the timings accordingly (i.e. processor runs at A, emulator runs at 3A, certain clock signals need to be emitted 3x slower than emulated CPU etc) would be fairly easy… then again who wants to work on that old processor?  You’re probably right that the ‘brain’ can simply be replaced - of course whatever hardware was dependent upon idiosyncracies of its behavior or timing would have to be worked around.  And I am guessing that they had to play with a lot of clever hardware tricks for performance to make this work back in the day it was engineered.

tho yeah ..what they got those chips to do in the first place was pretty impressive for the money.

Still is, when you think about it, for vintage pseudo-analog!  These M1000’s go for $150-220 regularly on Ebay.  It’s about the price range of the AN200 or a DarkStar XP2 territory.  Those are good little synths but a lot more specialized/limited than a programmable M1000 in many respects.

theres alot of m1000’s about (only people are to some degree hanging onto them right now) ..probably one of oberheims most sucessful synths ..in the 90’s it was the cheapest way to get access to loads of classic analog sounds for not much money..

this was the day when peoples studios where dominated by alot of preset sound machines & samplers which people tended to load preset librarys into ..so to them a minimalistic preset analog machine made sense.

theres alot of m1000’s about (only people are to some degree hanging onto them right now) ..probably one of oberheims most sucessful synths ..in the 90’s it was the cheapest way to get access to loads of classic analog sounds for not much money..

this was the day when peoples studios where dominated by alot of preset sound machines & samplers which people tended to load preset librarys into ..so to them a minimalistic preset analog machine made sense.

Right; nowadays it’s totally different, no one uses presets and soundsets for 90% of music out there :stuck_out_tongue:

I watch Ebay regularly for Obies (and Q’s, Evolvers, lots of others) for informational purposes via lots of saved searches… the 'bay definitely goes in cycles. Occasionally you even see a Matrix-12, and today, by sheer coincidence with our conversation, I see there is a Q+ being offered up, which is quite rare to see.  Poly-Evolver is interesting (4 Evolvers in one box) and seems to have audio input; I’m assuming one can direct audio through a single Evolver module then, and utilize its filters (or use the input audio as a mod source of course) while still having 3 Evolver modules free – that would be quite a setup, really!

Back on the concept of a retrofitted Matrix-1000, though - it’s definitely a concept that would appeal to a lot of DIY enthusiasts.  Despite its 3-digit display, M1000 patches are all named (cryptically, sure, but still…), and of course with the sysex issue remedied, so an enhanced display is not entirely out of the question (nor would be a control surface for the truly ambitious), and the synth would be fully controllable and tweak-friendly for realtime work.  The existing patch storage is probably quite adequate but there is no reason [given that we’re already writing our own firmware here :smiley: so what the heck] not to support a bankstick or the like for patch storage.  It could be hard to remove the biggest complaint about the Matrix-1000 (or at least the black-faced model like mine), the power-supply hum, but in terms of just the audio output of course, plugging it into my Firepod (balanced inputs and pretty good pre-amp) seems to take care of that quite nicely, and even the X-Station’s balanced stereo inputs cleans the signal of any noticeable hum.  The unit itself, of course, still hums in the rack :smiley: but luckily mine is not terribly loud.

A quick question before I leave this aside for awhile - does the M12 suffer from the same issues with regard to envelope speed and the sysex bottleneck of its little cousin M1000/M6R?  They don’t share near the “genealogy” of the M12 and Xpander (father and son?) so would assume the product lines were developed fairly independently from one another?  Also, how do you rate the keyboard and key response on this thing – I’ve been reading up on it in the past few days (for obvious reasons) and one of the complaints seems to be the cheap feel and response of the keyboard.  I also see in the specs there are no provisions for external audio in/out, so [unfortunately] no chance to use its versatile filters to process ext. audio sources, which is too bad.

Main reference I found was the hyperreal archive:  http://machines.hyperreal.org/manufacturers/Oberheim/Xpander.Matrix-12/  … Google turns up far more links to a Matrix 12 fish-finder, but Oberheim and/or Xpander made the keyword a lot more productive :smiley:

replyings getting difficult rn ..the forum is sucking on serverage…

you’d be surprised about presets.. in certain circles they still get used alot ..and there are lots and lots of presets now …not a big fan of them myself mind ..lol. but even i have to admit starting with a basic patch and elaborating on it is useful from time to time ..lol.

audio in poly evolver can be routed any manner of ways depending on the patch configuration.

its possible to add audio in to the matrix 12, expander and m1000 by making a switchable insert which replaces the noise source.. i may do this to the m12, but i have other things to tend to rn.

well, on the possible m1000 upgrade ..a number is all that most people would need, and they would use a pc editor / interface with full readout to ammend this issue for programming.

i dont generally get a hum issue …make sure your audio gear is on the same mains feed and you dont have any ground loops thus.

you can gate your sounds for cleaning up any low level noise.

the m1000/6r has some major lag issues on some perameters, because its cpu is woefully underpowered for realtime & rapid response.

the m12 is plenty fast enough for most mods, and mods in real time.

however all of them could be a smidge (milliseconds) faster on attack of the envelopes ..which makes highly percussive sounds a little soft & lends these synths to being best at bass, horns, pads & effects.

this could equally be a software or a hardware lag issue.. and maybe improved upon with the m1000 mod.

the keyboard response could be better & it is a little finicky to get it ‘tuned’ right to the desired velocity response… it does work, but it could be better and could be changed for another.

however its not the sort of handicap that’d impair the typical demands of playing live or for non taxing studio stuff.. it could of course have no velocity response at all; like the roland jupiter ..and that would really suck :wink: ..however for critical performance, using another keyboard / a dedicated controller maybe advantageous.

replyings getting difficult rn ..the forum is sucking on serverage…

I know - I’ve been trying all morning, and finally got through period.  So I’ll make this short in case that changes.  And of course it will artificially inflate my post count as a side effect.  Needless to say it’s quite annoying/frustrating, hopefully whatever is wrong gets solved soon.

I guess I forgot the /sarcasm tag in the comment on presets btw… presets are huge business, even moreso perhaps, and hundreds of ‘soundsets’ out there of “teh lastest” soundz you must use if you are a top producer, naturally.  :)  Signal path info for replacing noise source with audio input on the M1000 is very interesting, can you toss me at some documentation on that?  I’ll laugh if it’s on hyperreal and I just missed it.  As for the humming M1000, I didn’t mean I was getting audio noise, just that most ‘hum’ would be removed by my setup so I would not have noticed unless I plugged headphones directly into the unit; and through the Firepod or X-Station it is silence even when the unit is on and humming.  I meant literally that the unit itself hums when in operation.  Whether I plug it straight into the wall, through line conditioner, or into my UPS.  I read somewhere it is a design flaw in their choice of transformer for the PSU and it’s possible to replace but messing with power is not a hardware mod for a rank amateur like myself so I will just put up with the noise I guess.  It’s louder when the unit is horizontal; putting it at an angle reduces that for some reason - no idea whether it will run vertically even quieter or what, I’ve never tried it.  Anyway, I’ll try to address the rest of the comments in a few hours (with any luck, and assuming I can get onto the forum again!)

regarding the dac question:

the dac of choice in the matrix 12 appears to be an exar mp7523; there’s one on each voice.

the exar mp7523 is a 15v, 8 bit cmos chip.

http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/120012/EXAR/MP7523.html

audio in poly evolver can be routed any manner of ways depending on the patch configuration.

Simpler question: how similar/dissimilar are the audio input path/modulation options in comparison to the standard Evolver?  Can audio path be directed to one or a multitude of the 4 evolvers essentially inside the poly?  I know, I know, I could just download the manual :slight_smile:

well, on the possible m1000 upgrade ..a number is all that most people would need, and they would use a pc editor / interface with full readout to

ammend this issue for programming.

Some might try and make a full-fledged control surface update (thinking more of the M6R here than the 1000 rack) of some sort.  The M1000 stores its patch names internally, they just aren’t displayed (of course) due to the obvious display limitations.  Again, just another possible option.

i dont generally get a hum issue …make sure your audio gear is on the same mains feed and you dont have any ground loops thus.

Yes, it’s all on the same AC outlet, all the gear is plugged into one of those Monster home theater “line conditioner” / glorified surge protector things.  But even with nothing other than the Matrix 1k itself plugged in, it still hums.  I managed to dig up the reference, it’s the Analogue-Heaven list archives:

(http://elists.resynthesize.com/analogue-heaven/2002/07/323573/-Matrix-1000-hum-suggestions…html).

the m12 is plenty fast enough for most mods, and mods in real time.

however all of them could be a smidge (milliseconds) faster on attack of the envelopes ..which makes highly percussive sounds a little soft & lends these synths to being best at bass, horns, pads & effects.

cool… I would have to do some research to find out if the ‘slow envelopes’ are a CPU-related issue or a hardware one… again probably the limitations of the processor they used, and I’d doubt it’s the fault/limitation of the CEM voice chip itself.  but definitely that would be an area to focus effort on as well.  so… sysex response time and faster envelopes or replacement envelopes (depending on the nature of the problem) as the 2 major priorities so far in our vaporware retrofit/firmware upgrade :smiley:

the keyboard response could be better & it is a little finicky to get it ‘tuned’ right to the desired velocity response… it does work, but it could be better and could be changed for another.

however its not the sort of handicap that’d impair the typical demands of playing live or for non taxing studio stuff.. it could of course have no velocity response at all; like the roland jupiter ..and that would really suck :wink: ..however for critical performance, using another keyboard / a dedicated controller maybe advantageous.

One of the complaints I read suggested in the commentary that the guy was intending to replace it with a K2500’s keyboard, I hope that worked out for him!

(see his description at http://machines.hyperreal.org/manufacturers/Oberheim/Xpander.Matrix-12/mods/matrix12.mods.txt)

That would definitely make for one sweet performance instrument.  I hear what you’re saying about the Jupiter, luckily it’s not such a hindrance thanks to MIDI controllers of course, but not the most compact solution (then again the Jupiter is not exactly travel-friendly in the first place, I’m sure!)