First Project, needs lots of help and support :P

[ValveState]

I’m building an interface to cubase sx.  I plan on having 20 channels, each with 2 send level knobs, 1 insert level knob, 1 pan knob, mute, solo, arm and channel select switches with LEDs showing switch status and a volume fader.  Therefore for the 20 channels I would require 80 knobs, 80 switches, 80 LEDs and 20 faders. This is to help me with mixing in cubase.

Also to assist in controlling effects parameters I plan on having an effects section.  This will have a 5x4 matrix of knobs with 2 faders that control input and out put level.  I hope to use this when using compression, reverb, delay, modulation and multiband effects.

The midibox will also have a transport controller with 8 switches, 8 LEDs for showing status of those switches and a knob for scrubbing.

I will include an assignment section with 3 switches for bypassing inserts, sends and eq for the selected channel and 3 switches for automation.  Each switch will have an accompanying LED to show status.

The board will also have a zoom section with 5 switches.

The total of controls would then be 100 pots/knobs, 22 faders, 99 switches and 94 LEDs.  From what I understand I should be able to achieve this with 2 core modules, 4 DinX4 modules, 4 DoutX modules and 4AinX4 modules. 

I wanted to confirm is this is true or am I going wrong with this design?  I also wanted to have LED meters for each channel and do not know how I can achieve that since I don’t have enough LEDs left.  I’d really appreciate if anyone could guide me on that.  Another thing that I wanted to confirm was what other modules would be necessary to add, do I need an LTC module?  Should I add the LCD module? How do I make a digit display that shows bars beats and tick/hours minutes and seconds? From the data on the website, I gathered that it is possible to attach 8 motorfaders to one core module, in that case I should have 3 core modules to have 20 channels.  Does the motor fader module add 8 faders in addition to the 64 pots that the Ainx4 module provides?  If I use normal fader and not motorized ones will my design then be correct with 2 core modules?  One last thing, will I need to do any programming besides assigning controls there functions as in assembly level programming of drivers etc?

This website has gotten me damn excited!!!  Hats off to the people who maintain and contribute to it!!! I’d really appreciate any kind of help that I can get.  I want to have a perfect design on paper before I start the actual build.

[Screaming_Rabbit]

If I use normal fader and not motorized ones will my design then be correct with 2 core modules

…I dn’t know Cubase but many DAWs only support 8 Channels per MIDI port.

do I need an LTC module

…No, it’s just a MIDI Interface over your computer’s COM port

I add the LCD module?

…Yes - Debugging

How do I make a digit display that shows bars beats and tick/hours minutes and seconds?

http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_lc/midibox_lc_leddigits.pdf

This website has gotten me damn excited!!!

… same for us 

I want to have a perfect design on paper before I start the actual build

… good luck

Greets, Roger

[ValveState]

thanks dude!! i cut out the ltc from my design.  if 1 port supports 8 channels the how do those monster 24 fader midiboxes work?  use more than one midi port on the same pc?

Ok I did some designing and I found out that in order to have 24 faders I need 3 core modules.  I’ve attached an image of my current design below.  My requirements have also been modified.  I now have 100 pots, 24 motor faders, 99 switches, 94 LEDs to show switch status, 24 LED bar meters and a LED digit display. 

Is my design correct with those specifications?  Is there another more efficient design?

I have a new set of confusions in addition to the previous ones, which I still haves solved yet.  I know I can connect the 3 cores with wires. But after I do, would I need to do additional programming to make the 3 work as one?  I’m a lil confused about how midi merger works.  Would I require midimerger? 

I also have some PSU issues.  Do I need three separate 9V adaptors, one for each core or can I use one adaptor and use it as a common power source for the 3 cores? 

Is building a 3 core midibox a difficult project for a first timer?  I am getting these negative feelings, that this would be to large a project for a complete beginner and it won’t work.  Should go down to 2 core modules with 16 faders?

the image is my current design.  maybe it’ll help other newbies 3rd core module is optional. i’m thinking of goin down to 16 faders.

[Screaming_Rabbit]

if 1 port supports 8 channels the how do those monster 24 fader midiboxes work?  use more than one midi port on the same pc?

… yepp, 1 port for 8 faders

I have a new set of confusions in addition to the previous ones, which I still haves solved yet.  I know I can connect the 3 cores with wires. But after I do, would I need to do additional programming to make the 3 work as one?  I’m a lil confused about how midi merger works.  Would I require midimerger?

… see above! - each core connects over it’s own port to the host

Is building a 3 core midibox a difficult project for a first timer?

… yes 

Greets, Roger

[ValveState]

here is my front panel design.  it has 24 faders but i think the one i’ll make will have 16.  

so i should get a midi card which has to midi in ports in it to make 16 faders work. or use to COM ports? what about PSU? each core has it own or can i use a common PSU for both?

[banneduser]

Hmm.

It’s up to 8 motorfaders per core.. and I guess using midi feedback from the application to drive faders needs some “Control Surface Protocol” to be used.

For non-motorized faders (MB64) 64 pots per core can be used… ect. Cubase SX can map those, YEs?

Moebius

[ValveState]

i understand that each core can support 8 motor faders.  thats why i’m thinking of using 2 cores.  but would i be able to operate it through 1 port.  from what i understand i would need 2 midi ports on my pc to handle 16 motor faders. ???

control surface protocol?  i’m guessing thats some programming that i’ll have to do?  ??? any documents that i should read up on.  i’ve read all the stuff in the midibox 64 sections.  leme just go re read through it all…

thanks alot for the quick responses guys.  i really do appreciate the help

[drin]

For a first project you’ve bitten off a really big chunk. I’d suggest starting with something simpler - one core, 8 (non-motor) faders, some pots. In fact, I’d recommend building a MIDIBox64 or 64e to learn your way around. Even an LC, but a single LC - what you’re proposing is a complicated project, particularly if you have limited electronics experience.

-drin

[ValveState]

for the midi confusion:

"if multiple cores are connected to a single MIDI port in parallel or in a chain, each core should get it’s unique device ID, so that the upload tool can address the code to the right receiver. The device ID is part of the ID header, which can only be modified during the flash programming of the bootstrap loader, or with the change_id application.

The device ID selected in the upload window must match with the device ID of the core which should response to the transfer.

So long only one MIDIbox is connected to the MIDI port, it’s save to use device ID 00. A project where different device IDs are required is the MIDIbox SID (the master gets the ID 00, the slaves the IDs 01, 02 and 03)"

this is from the bootstrap page.  and from this it seems possible to have 2 cores working from one midi in and one midi out port on the pc.  thus making it possible to have 16 motor faders.

for drin:

what u said does make sense, maybe i’ll go with 8 motor faders and leave room for expansion in my panel…hmmm.  i do have some electronics experience (making simple effects n stuff) but none with stuff like the midibox.

is my design correct? the image i posted before.  thats also one of my main concerns.

[raphael]

is my design correct? the image i posted before. 

According to your image you want to connect 8 motorfaders and 64 pots to one core. But motorfaders and normal pots are mutual exclusive! 8 motorfaders or 64 pots per core as the motorfaders connect already to J5 of the core.

[…] this is from the bootstrap page.  and from this it seems possible to have 2 cores working from one midi in and one midi out port on the pc.  thus making it possible to have 16 motor faders.

The Logic control/Mackie Control protocol requires 1 Midi Connection (IN/OUT) per 8 channels! This has nothing to do with device IDs for SysEx messages. So there is no possibility to chain the cores if you want to use the LC application.

Raphael

[ValveState]

What I’ve been upto:

I spent a lot of time reading up on linking cores and found out that its possible to connect to midiboxes (PC Midi Out to Midi In of Box 1 – Midi Out of Box 1 to Midi In of Box 2 – Midi out of Box to Midi In of PC)  however there were several people reporting issues of having some difficulties with cubase.  Will it be better to make a copy of makie control and use that protocol for integration or will the box still work with cubase if it is fully customized to my needs having more buttons leds and faders than a Mackie control would?

For rapheal:

Thanks for the input man.  Cleared up some confusions I the design.  If one core can have either 8 faders or 64 pots and not both then how do some of the designs on the site suggest building a one core module with 8 faders and pots both? Like for example in the walkthrough of the mb64 the device has 8 faders + a lot of pots aswell.  And also like axels mega monster 1 master  LC + 2 Slave LC has 24 faders + some pots.  And pierre’s box also has 8 motorfaders + lots of knobs.  ???

My understanding:

So what I understand now is that in order to have 16 motorfaders I would need 2 cores and then to add pots I’d need to add another core to the design.  But if I do go with this design it wont work cause Mackie protocol only supports 8 faders per 1 midi out port.  Therefore to make the 16 faders work, linking the 2 LCs in a chain (1 master the other slave) with the PC out to LC1 in, LC1 out to LC2 in and LC2 out to PC in will not work.  If I do connect it like this (i.e connect the 2 LCs to one PC midi port) only 8 of the 16 faders will work.  So that means that the only way to make the 16 faders work is to install another Midi card in my pc, connect one set of ports to LC1 and the other set of ports to LC2. then in the configuration set one as the midi forward point and the other as the mid end point.  is that right?

[ValveState]

K I was reading up on control protocols in cubase sx2.  it seems that if I use the generic device protocol I can have my own customized interface with as many buttons and faders controlling whatever I want it to control.  However, it did say that I can only control 8 channels per port as the experts in this forum suggested.  Therefore I am going to build 2 LCs and intstall 2 sets of input and outputs in my PC.  Setup the two LCs according to 2 different banks(LC1 from channel 1-8 and LC2 from Channel 9-16) this should work.

However I’m still confused about:  for 16 motorized faders and knobs I would require 3 cores? 2 cores for the 16 faders and 1 core for the knobs?  The LEDs and Buttons are not a problem though.

Please check the new updated design based on the input for workability.  Am I on the right track now?

This just keeps getting exciting every minute!!! These shivers have been running up and down my spine ever since I started designing and drooling over those monster Midiboxes in the gallery!!

[raphael]

Hi,

If one core can have either 8 faders or 64 pots and not both then how do some of the designs on the site suggest building a one core module with 8 faders and pots both? Like for example in the walkthrough of the mb64 the device has 8 faders + a lot of pots aswell.

These Faders are non-motorized (consider them as normal pots). Axels Midibox LC uses Encoders like the original LC.

Concerning your new design:

One core can only handle 64 pots (in your design core 3 has to handle more then 100!). Please reread the MIOS documentation (http://www.ucapps.de/mios.html). There is a limit of 64 analog inputs and 128 digital IN/128 digital OUT per core (This cannot be changed without immense re-programming which would have been done by yourself).

Raphael

[ValveState]

K if I don’t use motor faders and use plain faders and plain pots, then if I mix a session in cubase and then save and close it, return the midibox setings to zero and then load the mix session that I just closed, what would happen?  I’m guessing the settings in the cubase session would be the way I saved them, but since the midibox controls are back to zero how would I continue?

[Screaming_Rabbit]

K if I don’t use motor faders and use plain faders and plain pots, then if I mix a session in cubase and then save and close it, return the midibox setings to zero and then load the mix session that I just closed, what would happen?  I’m guessing the settings in the cubase session would be the way I saved them, but since the midibox controls are back to zero how would I continue?

… exactly. And when you move the pots on the controller a bit, the value in Cubase jumps to the value of the pot. That’s why everybody (also the mixer manufacturers) uses endless encoders with LED-Rings for automated mixer control… except of Fairlight: They’re using motorized pots in their Dream-Series Mixers.

Greets, Roger

[Spoth74]

Hi,

The board will also have a zoom section with 5 switches.

Be careful, I understood Mackie protocol for cubase doesn’t support zoom button.

See Cubase_SX_SL_MackieControl.pdf from Mackie page 31.

(http://www.mackie.com/products/mcu/documents/Cubase_SX_SL_MackieControl.pdf)

I’m not sure cause I didn’t try yet.

Good work…

[Spoth74]

Hi again,

So what I understand now is that in order to have 16 motorfaders I would need 2 cores and then to add pots I’d need to add another core to the design.  But if I do go with this design it wont work cause Mackie protocol only supports 8 faders per 1 midi out port.  Therefore to make the 16 faders work, linking the 2 LCs in a chain (1 master the other slave) with the PC out to LC1 in, LC1 out to LC2 in and LC2 out to PC in will not work.  If I do connect it like this (i.e connect the 2 LCs to one PC midi port) only 8 of the 16 faders will work.  So that means that the only way to make the 16 faders work is to install another Midi card in my pc, connect one set of ports to LC1 and the other set of ports to LC2. then in the configuration set one as the midi forward point and the other as the mid end point.  is that right?

I read once that Axel include one MidiSport 4x4 in his midibox. So he connected to the PC via USB and had 4 Midi ports avaiable. You can think of 4 LC in one enclosure. After that I don’t know how he configured to have the right channel number on the midibox.

Good luck

[ValveState]

thanks alot for all the help guys!! i’ve finalized my design and front panel.  i think the design is now workable.  8 motorfaders, 32 encoders, 64 switches,64 LEDs, 9 LED meters, 1 LED digit Display.  i’ve attached the image of the current design and i’ll post the front panel too. 

i hope i’ve got it right this time.  cant wait to start soldering!!

[ValveState]

In the Dinx4 module when I’m using encoders,  the .pdf file show 8 encoders, a jog wheel and two touch sensors attached.  Can I change this setup and instead attach 16 encoders to the module?since from what I understand each encoder user 2 inputs and therefore it should be possible to install 16 encoders in one module.

And also, I just want to use LED meters for each channel and I don’t want any LED rings what do I do with the open inputs for the LED rings?

here’s the cutout template for the front panel

[Spoth74]

Hi,

Yes you can connect 16 encoders per DIN. You configure that in the second part of the file mios_tables.inc of the lc app.

MIOS_ENC_PIN_TABLE
	;; encoders 1-16
	;;        SR  Pin  Mode
	ENC_ENTRY 13,  0,  MIOS_ENC_MODE_NON_DETENTED	; V-Pot 1
	ENC_ENTRY 13,  2,  MIOS_ENC_MODE_NON_DETENTED	; V-Pot 2
	ENC_ENTRY 13,  4,  MIOS_ENC_MODE_NON_DETENTED	; V-Pot 3
	ENC_ENTRY 13,  6,  MIOS_ENC_MODE_NON_DETENTED	; V-Pot 4
	ENC_ENTRY 14,  0,  MIOS_ENC_MODE_NON_DETENTED	; V-Pot 5
	ENC_ENTRY 14,  2,  MIOS_ENC_MODE_NON_DETENTED	; V-Pot 6
	ENC_ENTRY 14,  4,  MIOS_ENC_MODE_NON_DETENTED	; V-Pot 7
	ENC_ENTRY 14,  6,  MIOS_ENC_MODE_NON_DETENTED	; V-Pot 8

	ENC_ENTRY 15,  0,  MIOS_ENC_MODE_NON_DETENTED	; Jog-Wheel
	ENC_EOT
	ENC_EOT
	ENC_EOT
	ENC_EOT
	ENC_EOT
	ENC_EOT
	ENC_EOT

After ENC_ENTRY, the 1st number is for the Serial register and the second number the even pin of the encoder.

So you cannot connect 16 encoders and other buttons like FX  in one DIN.

Be careful if this is push encoder you need one more pin (like a push button) and if you have touch sensor motorfader, you need one pin by fader (see the lc_io_table.inc file for example)

Good midiboxing, Steph