ACSensorizer Questions

[audiocommander]

Because for my taste I’m answering too much PM’s lately, I decided to open up a new topic here. I asked Dcer10 and he had nothing against it, so I copied his questions and my answers here

Hiya AC’ date=’

Hows things for you? Well I hope! Ive been thinking about the sensor you made a lot and ive finally got all the bits I think im going to need to start building a MB controller, I have a core, 8 memory chip board, an ain a din and an mtc. I really want to build something that is special here but I dont see any projects that have all the bits I need software wise.

Basically I want to include use of a sensor like yours, which Im guessing would go into an ain board?? Is your sensor project complete and would you be able to suggest any extra parts I need inc the type of sensor? Does your project use special firmware or would it work on one of the normal MB controller programs, and if so which would you suggest for me?

Secondly I want to add the LFO extension and another input, maybe 2 lots of the 3 LFOs to the same box, as well as some extra CV inputs for pedals, and from other gear. I have a bunch of encoders and a 20x2 screen as well as a heap of buttons here too. Another aspect that looks difficult to me will be adding a power supply which will power all these devices in one box.

Do you have any advice for me on getting started? Im a bit lost in it all  

All the best,

John[/quote’]

[audiocommander]

Hi dcer10,

I’m fine; thanks. A bit too much to do and too less time to continue my MB-projects like I would, but I guess that’s not much different from others

-> The Sensors go to an AIN board, right.

-> I would not recommend mixing sensors with 10k-Pots, I experienced jittering on the Pots which is (friendly spoken) quite annoying. Since I’m working only with sensors (AIN) and Encoders (DIN), that’s no prob anymore.

-> My second Sensorizer Project is complete, it supports up to 8 sensors and has very few settings. You can check it out at the Wiki. I have not released any sources yet, 'cause I got no time for it and noone asked. If you’d be interested, I can release a package. Here you’ll see both sensorizers

http://www.midibox.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=acsensorizer

I mean the second one:

http://www.midibox.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=acsensorizer_basic

I think the HUI of the first one is too complicated (can’t remember what knob does what), so I’ll definitely stick to the second one. I’m currently working on the clock module to syncronize the sounds. A harmonizer is already implemented! The rest (CC-Assignments, Sensor-Config, Bankstick-Support) is already working quite stable. That means I use it on stage an in exhibitions and never experienced a problem so far. And I like the simple interface:

The left ENC selects the sensor (1..8 ), the right the menu (eg Harmony), the two bottom ENCs the settings (eg Basenote, Scale).

The three buttons are: PANIC, (2nd) PEDAL, LOAD, SAVE.

And yes, it’s my own firmware and has nothing to do with an MB64/e. And remember that it’s restricted to 8 sensors max, so you don’t need no AIN.

-> the problem in implementing the SHARP sensors with an MB64 are:

    - jittering of AIN

    - getting the full range (0 to 5 V needed, 0.5 to 3.2 V delivered from the sensor) electronically and not by code (don’t think it makes sense to hack the ASM-coded MB source). That means if you’d connect a sensor to an MB64/e, you’d get all the time the lowest signal 12 (ALL the time!) and the max would be 76!

-> CIMO started to experiment, but I haven’t heard from him for a longer while

-> Wilba explained to me how this would be achieveable, but to be honest: I’m no electronics pro and there are too much problems for my taste (negative voltage, and very complicated product range when it comes to opamps). And I never found any open circuits in the internet, which is a bit cheesy I think. Anyway, that’s what he told me:

I experimented with some LM324 amps last weeks’ date=’ but after talking to an electronic student on christmas eve, I’m not sure anymore if that’s really helpful: It would be required to have an amplification that scales and extends the values

=> 0.5 V to 3.5 V

should become 0 V to 5 V

so 2 V should become 2.5 V

But after thinking about it, I believe such a task can only be done by a microcontroller.[/quote’]

[audiocommander]

Hiya AC’ date=’

Thanks for all the info. This looks like it will be a great project! Im looking at making it for live performance. I’m very interested in building the ACSensorizer Basic version as I have everything I need that goes in the box I think. A couple of things Im still stuck on tho are, do I need an AIN board or do the sensors go into the core itself? If so do the pedals also go into the core? Im thinking I want to build one with 2 sensors and 2 pedals (to begin with) so one sensor could play notes and the other play modulation cc#1 into the sequencer (basically I want to use the whole box as a sequencer extension). Can I have 2 pedals and could they turn off the sensors individually with the existing firmware?

Also I didn’t see any information anywhere about which acutal sesnors are used. I did see some mention in the forum about Sharp GP distance sensors? In my attempts to get more info I have enquired at all the local electronics component shops here and I cant locate any distance sensors at all, can you suggest the model and also the supplier?

I will not use pots on it now since you suggest not to, I think I will try to keep it all simple for now

Also in your youtube videos there is one with people touching to make music and you said this was part of your sensor setup, how could other inputs like this be used?

Thanks!!

John[/quote’]

[audiocommander]

Hi dcer10,

A couple of things Im still stuck on tho are, do I need an AIN board or do the sensors go into the core itself?

You can find all the specs here:

http://www.midibox.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=acsensorizer_basic#required_hardware

The sensorizer is restricted to 8 Analog Inputs. Therefore no AIN-Board is needed. That’s because it would be too much calculation. Also, be aware that the GPs actually use current; 1 SHARP sensor needs about 20 to 50 mA. If you hook up 8 of them, up to 400 mA are needed, which will increase the power regulator’s temperature noticeably (or even succeed the power supply’s features!). I use it with 2 – somethimes 3 – Distance Sensors and an 800mA supply and it runs fine.

Can I have 2 pedals and could they turn off the sensors individually with the existing firmware?

No, it’s just for one pedal, but you can specify which sensor(s) should react to the pedal or not.

Also I didn’t see any information anywhere about which acutal sesnors are used

You can use anything that outputs a Voltage between 0 and 5Vs, but it’s the sensorizer’s reason to live, that it must not be exactly 0 to 5. You can for example use a sensor that delivers 0.5 to 1.5 Vs and setup the Sensorizer to trigger CC’s in the range of 35 (@0.55V) to 85 (@1.5V).

So be creative The interface is quite configureable and you can easily hook on a bunch of voltage based devices. There’s a lot more out there than IR distance sensors or skin restistance circuits, just experiment a bit and I’m sure you’ll find the perfect ones for you

You don’t need to hook up the same devices, you’re free to mix 'em. Each of the eight allowed sensors can be configured independently!

In my attempts to get more info I have enquired at all the local electronics component shops here and I cant locate any distance sensors at all

Farnell.com is quite cheap and that’s where I got them.

Conrad has them but is 150% more expensive.

Just search google for “Sharp distance senor IR” and $ or EUR and you will find plenty of shops.

It would be an overkill to list all the detailed infos here, 'cause there are plenty of different models differing in range. So it’s up to you what you like best. I like the 1.50m and 80 cm models. Just watch out, that you don’t buy those with digital output (just ON/OFF) but instead get those with an analogue voltage range!

Cheers,

Michael

ah, and btw:

Im looking at making it for live performance.

I hope you realized, that nearly everything is already implemented, but one basic feature is yet missing: the NOTE OFF triggers. I will add this when my ACSyncronizer Classes are ready. I’m currently over it, but can’t promise any time. Don’t expect it too soon. The problem herewith is that everything depends on note lengths and corresponding NOTE OFFs must be sent, too. That’s not trivial and should work right to prevent hanging notes. In the meanwile, CC’s will be just fine I think. AFAICR you can use a CC->NOTEON conversion tool (should be something available) and use it (with the Pedal as note-off switcher) with some monophonic sounds. Or use it for triggering (I’ve also done that: you can distribute samples over a range and trigger these)… you know, possibilities are endless

[bosone]

i think that i will rebuild my pressure / breath controller

http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_ext.html

using your ac sensorized box…

is it the right project???

the problem with my design is flickering and a lot of values passed as CC, so that it’s very difficult to use it!

moreover, i think that i will add D-beam like controller and perhaps the 2D touchscreen i got as a freesamples from http://www.spectrasymbol.com/ (even if i didnt understand how are the connections!!!)

so i am basically VERY interested in this project… and also.. where can i find d-beam like sensors’???

thank you!

[audiocommander]

Hi bosone,

nice to hear from you, have read about your breath controller when I was a newbie here ;D

This seems to be the right project for you.

However, there are only 8 sensors supported per module. I recommend 4 (depending on the power usage of the connected sensors and the frequency of the produced messages). With 4 distance sensors, the box is running charmingly, the power regulator does not get very warm. However, with 8 distance sensors, the power regulator gets hot. If you mix active and passive sensors (distance sensors are active) or have only passive sensors, 8 should be no problem. The sensors get directly connected to the Core.

The sensorizer has been developed to avoid exactly those problems like flickering, low range threshold, limited range, etc… :)  8)

About the trackpad: you need to find out how to connect this. Without knowing the exact specs, I cannot help you with this. You may search the forum; there are some topics around that will help you. Basically you should find out if you’re dealing with either resistance based or capacity based technology. The first one might be easier to connect (2 Resistors, X/Y), the second one has its advantages, too, but may be difficult to connect.

You can find the “D-Beam” if you search the web for Sharp GP2Dxxxx IR (Infrared) Distance sensors. Conrad sells them for about 35,- EUR in Germany (unfair pricing), Farnell has them for about 11,- EUR (normal price): http://it.farnell.com/ …I’ve also seen them for 8 to 15 $ in some US robotic shops. Be careful and read the specs before you buy: there are digital and analogue types, don’t take the “digital” ones, they just provide a binary ON/OFF status (eg. ON when something is near and OFF when there’s nothing in range).

You should build the ACSensorizer 0.4 (basic). It’s basically the same as 0.2 (stage) but has an easier control menu. The HUI for 0.2 won’t be developed further, with v0.4 you’ll have a future proof box and can await firmware updates from time to time. I’ll release the first 0.4 firmware soon. If you want to check out the software, I can send you a beta version.

Although you can use the 0.4 beta, Harmonizing and Syncronizing features are not yet fully implemented, but both work fine in the upcoming kII (SpeakJet) project, which I will finish first. After I released the SpeakJet files (Priority 1), I’ll update the Sensorizer Sources (Priority 2). As mentioned, drop me a line when you’re ready to start and you’ll receive a beta-package. HUI (Encoders/Buttons/LCD) will not change.

You need:

1 Core

1 LCD (2x16)

1 Bankstick*

1 DIN**

4 Encoders**

4 Buttons**

*  optional, but quite useful; up to 8 supported; 1 BS provides 2 banks with 127 programs each = 256 PRG per Bankstick

** theoretically optional, can be set it up via NRPN messages; I have a Mac OS X program that can remote control the box, but no such option for Windows PCs. So I definitely recommend this small input setup

Cheers,

Michael

[bosone]

thanks a lot!

actually, for now the specs of my “virtual ac sensorized box” would be

• pressure sensor

• d-beam

• XY touchpad (if i can figure out the schematics)!!

next month i will go to a fleamarket near my town and i hope to find something useful for this project… expecially the case!

[kris]

its a really intresting appllication ill have to look into the different sensors available and think about implementation but deffinately very interesting

regards kris

[audiocommander]

Hi Kris,

I try to keep some informations about sensors on this page:

http://www.midibox.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=sensors

just quick links, but they may trigger some ideas and imaginations

Cheers,

Michael

[audiocommander]

Just a quick note for all those who are wating for the next sensorizer:

while the kII/SpeakJet beta gets (hopefully) tested by somebody, I got some time to apply a few very cool features to the Sensorizer. It has now full quantisation support (and improved harmonisation). So it’s possible to either send CC’s or note events (both quantized! different quantize-vales for each sensor, of course!, selectable scales).

Now I only have to fix some bugs  ;D and implement NOTE_Offs… shouldn’t take that long anymore…

Stay tuned!

Cheers,

Michael

[bosone]

just one more question:

will it be possible to connect an XY touch pad taken from a laptop to the AC sensorized?

i will go to an electronic flea market in may, and there it will be possible to find a lot of useful toys and components for midiboxes!

thanks

[audiocommander]

Hi bosone,

theoretically yes, practically every circuit needs to be adapted, so the voltage can be measured. As you know, that’s quite easy for resistance based sensors, but that may not be very straightforward for capacity based touchpads (like the iPod has one). You cannot connect these directly to the AINs, but there are some ICs to help you converting capacity input to voltage ( http://www.audiocommander.de/blog/?p=66 ). However I have never tried this with touchpads, nor do I know if this will work.

I think there should be also some older touchpads that use resistance (requires a bit of pressure). In the best case you find two outputs (4 or 6 wires incl. Vdd / Vss) which you may directly connect to the AINs of the Core/Sensorizer. So you would use two inputs for the XY pad and can configure each Axxis seperately.

Cheers,

Michael

ps: don’t expect the ACSensorizer Release in May,

but Beta versions are possible anytime!

Edit:

About TouchPads, SoftPots and other interesting stuff:

http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?topic=5023.0

[bosone]

i realised i have only 3 encoder at home… as in “standard” midiboxes, is it possible to replace one encoder with 2 buttons, right?  ???

[audiocommander]

should be possible, I think.

Preferrably the sensor selection (1 to 8 )

Edit:

hmm, not so sure anymore. might work, but who knows if an encoder can be simulated by two buttons? I haven’t tried… If it does not work, well, 3$ for another encoder does not seem to be harder than changing the code :-\

Besides that, the complete GUI can also be controlled by Midi. There’s a remote control application shipping with the next beta, unfortunately only for Mac OS X…

[audiocommander]

ahh, ACSensorizer 0.4.3 is ready

I just finished the most important updates (Quantizer, Harmonizer, Patchname-Support, Auto-Master/Slave, just to name a few).

I’ll make some testings the next days and if I can’t find any errors, I’ll release a first beta-version.

Cheers,

Michael

[stryd_one]

Congrats mate

[bosone]

i finally ordered the distance sensor, i found them in italy for 16€… http://www.robot-italy.com/product_info.php/products_id/33

and i also managed to find a case… so i will begin to build the modules in my spare time soon, i hope!

two questions:

1. the diagram for connecting the sensors found in http://www.sensorwiki.org/index.php/Infrared: should the Vout of the IR sensor be connected directly to the AIN of the core? without resistance??  the same for my pressure sensor to be used as breath controller?  what is the “VOUT” block in the diagrams on the sensor pages? simply the AIN of the core?

if i understood well, all the sensors which have a direct Vout should be connected diretly to J5, right? this happens even if the output range is very low (0-1 V or less…).

2. i will mount 2 IR sensors: if they are mounted too closely, is there the possibility that they interfere one with the other? should i try to mount them as distant as possibile, maybe orienting them at different tilt angles (orienting them like a “V”)? what is your experience?

thanks!

[bosone]

my sharp sensors have arrived, but they have very tiny connector (different from the “standard” midibox ones) which don’t fit in anything i have!!!

i hope to find some female connector of this kind, anyway i have to solder the wires directly to the PCB…

[audiocommander]

Hi,

two questions:

1. the diagram for connecting the sensors found in http://www.sensorwiki.org/index.php/Infrared: should the Vout of the IR sensor be connected directly to the AIN of the core? without resistance??  the same for my pressure sensor to be used as breath controller?  what is the “VOUT” block in the diagrams on the sensor pages? simply the AIN of the core?

if i understood well, all the sensors which have a direct Vout should be connected diretly to J5, right? this happens even if the output range is very low (0-1 V or less…).

well, I can’t give you any universal answer to that, because every sensor is different. In case of the Sharp sensors you can connect the Vout to the Ain Pin. But you cannot directly mount a resistor the the AIN. Just search this forum or look to the Wiki Page (Sensors). I answered this question several times.

2. i will mount 2 IR sensors: if they are mounted too closely, is there the possibility that they interfere one with the other? should i try to mount them as distant as possibile, maybe orienting them at different tilt angles (orienting them like a “V”)? what is your experience?

yeah. “V” is good. They have a very thin operating “line”. But again: you have to try this and find the right positioning. I would not mount it before being sure it works well.

There are - of course - also other light sources that could interfere with the sensors; everything that’s coming near the infra-red light spectrum.

my sharp sensors have arrived, but they have very tiny connector (different from the “standard” midibox ones) which don’t fit in anything i have!!!

i hope to find some female connector of this kind, anyway i have to solder the wires directly to the PCB..

Yes, it’s hard to find these. I get them from Conrad. Very expensive, but… :-\

You could also solder cables directly to the connectors and make your own connectors at the end of the cable.

Regards,

Michael

[bosone]

greetings!

i must admit that, even you sent me the AC sensorized code months ago, i didnt even started to assemble it because i was very busy with other things…

but now i started at least to build the case…

i have just one question, regarding the pedal:

Probably i will connect the midi in of AC sensorized to an external midikeyboard, which of course has its sustain pedal. would it be possilbe to control the pedal of the acsensorized box by the controller 64 (or any other CC) of the midikeyboard? or, which is the same, it the acsensorized pedal remote-controlled by a CC message?

would it be possible to recompile the application to let the box behave in this way? i must admit i never managed the midibox C-code, (i konw a little MIOS) so i should study a little to accomplish this task…

anyway this is important for me to know because i have to drill the holes in the case!

thank you vvery much!